5 ms·

I'm not into finance, but may I assume this is not about actual bears?

mdp2021 3y ago
The bull hits from below to above: the object is rising. A "bullish" market is pulled upwards. The bear hits from above to below: the object is falling. A "bearish" market is pushed downwards.
- UtopiaPunk 3y ago
  Omg, is this where the terms come from? Finance people are full of themselves
  - LeafItAlone 3y ago
    > Finance people are full of themselves I’m not sure I understand why using bear/bull terms makes one full of themselves?
    - withinboredom 3y ago
      I thought y'all were just trying to rhyme.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - olddustytrail 3y ago
    Yes, it's where the terms come from. But if using jokey terms for things is being full of themselves, where does that leave software development? The field is rife with jokes and punny naming.
    - UtopiaPunk 3y ago
      1) My remark comes from not understanding bull and bear as jokey, but as, like, cool aggressive forces of nature to describe what a line on a chart looks like. 2) People in the software industry, also extremely full of themselves.
- withinboredom 3y ago
  I'd always heard (I grew up next to a cow pasture): you want to pet the bull, but run from the bear.
  - mdp2021 3y ago
    And you are right to point that out, because all those senses ("horn thrust and paw slam", "domesticated vs savage") are backformations. We adopted them because they made sense. The real origin of the terms is from the early 1700: "seller of the bear skin before the bear is caught" - old proverb - was called the player that tries to deliver goods after their price has fallen (so a seller in advance). In 1709 the term was in fact 'bearskin'. Ten years later the "bull" was introduced as a counterpart - this time probably with relation to the images.
- brvsft 3y ago
  The fact that bears are known to hibernate sounds like a better reason behind the term. So I looked it up because your comment just sounds like some ridiculous folklore etymology someone made up (no offense, and apparently my guess is not right either). https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-origins-of-the-bear-and-bull-in-the-stock-market https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-origins-of... > The bear came first. Etymologists point to a proverb warning that it is not wise "to sell the bear's skin before one has caught the bear." By the eighteenth century, the term bearskin was being used in the phrase "to sell (or buy) the bearskin" and in the name "bearskin jobber," referring to one selling the "bearskin." Bearskin was quickly shortened to bear, which was applied to stock that was being sold by a speculator and the speculator selling stock. ... > At about the same time, another animal symbol made its appearance in the marketplace. The term bull originally meant a speculative purchase in the expectation that stock prices would rise; the term was later applied to the person making such purchases. The animal seems to have been chosen as a fitting alter ego to the bear. Thus poet Alexander Pope wrote in 1720: > > Come fill the South Sea goblet full; > > The gods shall of our stock take care: > > Europa pleased accepts the Bull, > > And Jove with joy puts off the Bear. > This eighteenth-century animal imagery caught on, and bears and bulls have been in the stock market ever since. I'm not really satisfied with the bull explanation either, as it sounds a bit tauotological, but whatever.
  - mdp2021 3y ago
    Yes, you can check my other comment nearby at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36835497 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36835497 , which I was composing while you were composing yours. In short, > all those senses ("horn thrust and paw slam", "domesticated vs savage") are backformations. We adopted them because they made sense. But now, about > ridiculous folklore etymology someone made up (no offense, and apparently my guess is not right either) It does not work that way. An etymology as an history of a term will produce a chronicle, not yet a meaning: in 1709 somebody started to use "bearskin" out of the proverb, etc. But there is not just that: there is the meaning of terms that we recognize during that development - "horn thrust and paw slam", "domesticated vs savage", as I wrote nearby. So, what I wrote in the original is the meaning that came after the origin - what is intended (or part of what is intended). In fact, "bear" (in market speculation) comes from "bearskin", but where did they take the "bull" from (image that was construed to have a bear as a counterpart)? There you have to reason about the terms and construct a working image. There is no need to call it "ridiculous": it is normal sense attribution for jargon creation. Edit: in fact, for a study of the origin you can also consult Investopedia, "Where Did the Bull and Bear Market Get Their Names?", at https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/bull-bear-market-names/ https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/bull-bear-market-na... where you will find foremostly the images of their ways of attack. Then the origin, the "bearskin jobber", and the need to have a counterpart. Then it noted, importantly, that bets on bull and bear fights were very popular in the past centuries - which can be another origin of using those animals for a bet.
anotherboffin 3y ago
You are correct, though my knowledge of finance is insufficient to give you much more detail.
melling 3y ago
In the old days, we would just google it. These days ChatGPT will write a nice answer: “A bear market is a financial term used to describe a prolonged period of declining stock prices, typically by 20% or more, across various financial markets. During a bear market, investor confidence is low, and there is a prevailing sense of pessimism about the economy's future performance. It is the opposite of a bull market, which is characterized by rising stock prices and increased optimism.” It’s kind of cool to have a tutor like this. Wish it could teach math.
- mdp2021 3y ago
  Only, now you have to check each output sentence, because if formerly you could suspect that an output could be a figment wit shaky sides, now it becomes the rule.
astura 3y ago
When stock prices are treading downwards it's known as a "bear market," when stock prices are treading upwards it's know as a "bull market." No actual animals involved.

mdp2021 3y ago

The bull hits from below to above: the object is rising. A "bullish" market is pulled upwards. The bear hits from above to below: the object is falling. A "bearish" market is pushed downwards.

UtopiaPunk 3y ago
Omg, is this where the terms come from? Finance people are full of themselves
- LeafItAlone 3y ago
  > Finance people are full of themselves I’m not sure I understand why using bear/bull terms makes one full of themselves?
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    I thought y'all were just trying to rhyme.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- olddustytrail 3y ago
  Yes, it's where the terms come from. But if using jokey terms for things is being full of themselves, where does that leave software development? The field is rife with jokes and punny naming.
  - UtopiaPunk 3y ago
    1) My remark comes from not understanding bull and bear as jokey, but as, like, cool aggressive forces of nature to describe what a line on a chart looks like. 2) People in the software industry, also extremely full of themselves.
withinboredom 3y ago
I'd always heard (I grew up next to a cow pasture): you want to pet the bull, but run from the bear.
- mdp2021 3y ago
  And you are right to point that out, because all those senses ("horn thrust and paw slam", "domesticated vs savage") are backformations. We adopted them because they made sense. The real origin of the terms is from the early 1700: "seller of the bear skin before the bear is caught" - old proverb - was called the player that tries to deliver goods after their price has fallen (so a seller in advance). In 1709 the term was in fact 'bearskin'. Ten years later the "bull" was introduced as a counterpart - this time probably with relation to the images.
brvsft 3y ago
The fact that bears are known to hibernate sounds like a better reason behind the term. So I looked it up because your comment just sounds like some ridiculous folklore etymology someone made up (no offense, and apparently my guess is not right either). https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-origins-of-the-bear-and-bull-in-the-stock-market https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-origins-of... > The bear came first. Etymologists point to a proverb warning that it is not wise "to sell the bear's skin before one has caught the bear." By the eighteenth century, the term bearskin was being used in the phrase "to sell (or buy) the bearskin" and in the name "bearskin jobber," referring to one selling the "bearskin." Bearskin was quickly shortened to bear, which was applied to stock that was being sold by a speculator and the speculator selling stock. ... > At about the same time, another animal symbol made its appearance in the marketplace. The term bull originally meant a speculative purchase in the expectation that stock prices would rise; the term was later applied to the person making such purchases. The animal seems to have been chosen as a fitting alter ego to the bear. Thus poet Alexander Pope wrote in 1720: > > Come fill the South Sea goblet full; > > The gods shall of our stock take care: > > Europa pleased accepts the Bull, > > And Jove with joy puts off the Bear. > This eighteenth-century animal imagery caught on, and bears and bulls have been in the stock market ever since. I'm not really satisfied with the bull explanation either, as it sounds a bit tauotological, but whatever.
- mdp2021 3y ago
  Yes, you can check my other comment nearby at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36835497 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36835497 , which I was composing while you were composing yours. In short, > all those senses ("horn thrust and paw slam", "domesticated vs savage") are backformations. We adopted them because they made sense. But now, about > ridiculous folklore etymology someone made up (no offense, and apparently my guess is not right either) It does not work that way. An etymology as an history of a term will produce a chronicle, not yet a meaning: in 1709 somebody started to use "bearskin" out of the proverb, etc. But there is not just that: there is the meaning of terms that we recognize during that development - "horn thrust and paw slam", "domesticated vs savage", as I wrote nearby. So, what I wrote in the original is the meaning that came after the origin - what is intended (or part of what is intended). In fact, "bear" (in market speculation) comes from "bearskin", but where did they take the "bull" from (image that was construed to have a bear as a counterpart)? There you have to reason about the terms and construct a working image. There is no need to call it "ridiculous": it is normal sense attribution for jargon creation. Edit: in fact, for a study of the origin you can also consult Investopedia, "Where Did the Bull and Bear Market Get Their Names?", at https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/bull-bear-market-names/ https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/bull-bear-market-na... where you will find foremostly the images of their ways of attack. Then the origin, the "bearskin jobber", and the need to have a counterpart. Then it noted, importantly, that bets on bull and bear fights were very popular in the past centuries - which can be another origin of using those animals for a bet.

anotherboffin 3y ago

You are correct, though my knowledge of finance is insufficient to give you much more detail.

melling 3y ago

In the old days, we would just google it. These days ChatGPT will write a nice answer: “A bear market is a financial term used to describe a prolonged period of declining stock prices, typically by 20% or more, across various financial markets. During a bear market, investor confidence is low, and there is a prevailing sense of pessimism about the economy's future performance. It is the opposite of a bull market, which is characterized by rising stock prices and increased optimism.” It’s kind of cool to have a tutor like this. Wish it could teach math.

mdp2021 3y ago
Only, now you have to check each output sentence, because if formerly you could suspect that an output could be a figment wit shaky sides, now it becomes the rule.

astura 3y ago

When stock prices are treading downwards it's known as a "bear market," when stock prices are treading upwards it's know as a "bull market." No actual animals involved.