4 ms·

You’re intentionally returning unsigned contacts to employers hoping they don’t notice? Seeing how you’re first action in each of your new jobs is done in bad

You’re intentionally returning unsigned contacts to employers hoping they don’t notice? Seeing how you’re first action in each of your new jobs is done in bad faith I think I see why you’ve had to fill out six of them…

dmix 3y ago
You could easily get by by saying it was just a mix up and you emailed the wrong PDF. Not saying it's ethical though. I'm also not really sure which situations an employment contract would really hurt you in tech besides maybe some IP stuff. NDAs are usually separate.
- constantly 3y ago
  Not that I necessarily agree with the person you’re responding to, but their point seems to be that this is a bad faith action, not that they will get in trouble for it and need to cover it up with further bad faith.
- caminante 3y ago
  I inherit non-countersigned contracts frequently. IANAL,but they're still enforceable, especially in the grandparent's situation where the grandparent's work product was accepted and they were paid. There are realms of contract law where signature compliance is more prescribed like probate.
- thayne 3y ago
  > I'm also not really sure which situations an employment contract would really hurt you in tech besides maybe some IP stuff In my first contract for a dev job: - noncompete - agreement to work for a minimum amount of time, while my employer could terminate me at will (I don't think this one was actually enforceable where I live, since I didn't get a signing bonus, but I didn't know that at the time) - IP stuff - agreement to arbitration for any disputes (and employer chooses the arbitrator of course) I would probably dispute some of those now, but as at the time I was naive, fresh out of college. And even if I had pushed back, I didn't have much leverage. I had just moved, and had no money, I couldn't afford not to take the job.
rajamaka 3y ago
Is it rare to have 6 jobs in a career? I have had 3 in the last 5 years alone.
- Filligree 3y ago
  I would normally assume a year before a new employee is a net benefit; the first six months is mostly training. Someone who sticks around for less than two, we’d have been better off not hiring.
EGreg 3y ago
How does a handwritten signature prove anything? They are so easy to forge. I always wondered WHY ARE PEOPLE IN THE US ASKED TO SIGN A RECEIPT WHEN THEY PAY BY CREDIT CARD? I can draw literally any scraggles and they’ll accept it. Are they supposed to compare to the signature I put on my card?
- LinAGKar 3y ago
  Not just in the US. McDonald's does the same here in Sweden, or at least they used to (but AFAIK only McDonald's, and no one else). Always found that weird.
- arcbyte 3y ago
  The signature is just a physical manifesting of assent. It's presence is indicative that you've agreed to what you're signing. Signature comparison is a line of defense. More broadly, There's a whole set of practices that assume a relationship. You scoff at signatures, but in their heyday, my local banker knew me and knew my signature and he could spot a general forgery or even unusual patterns. Every economic transaction I engaged in came with a relationship that helped mitigate fraud. Even voting in the US today carries remnants of this. If you go to a small town to vote, you know the election workers and they know you. There's no need for an ID and there's no question of fraud. Everybody knows everybody. If you try to vote and nobody knows you, if you've got the paperwork, you'll get a smile and you'll vote, but you can bet your ballot is flagged for extra scrutiny afterwards. We need more of this system in the modern world.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Of course, even in large cities, IDs are not required for voting in many states. As you probably know, it's a very contentious topic.
    - arcbyte 3y ago
      Thats poor phrasing on my part. Voters dont generally need IDs in the US. I meant "need" in the sense that IDs aren't even a desired issue in the political process.
benj111 3y ago
Have you actually worked for a company? I doubt the parent did this in his first job, once you get to your 4th job, I can totally understand. Plus why is it bad faith? The employee is presumably expected to read the contract, or should they just trust the employer? By the same token, the employer should be expected to check that the employee actually agrees to the terms.
indymike 3y ago
> Seeing how you’re first action in each of your new jobs is done in bad faith This behavior is not bad faith, unless it is done with the intent to deceive the employer. It's on the employer to make sure documentation is done correctly. In my company, we catch these kinds of things when we are setting up payroll. Most of the time the employee genuinely forgot to sign, or read some creative advice on the internet. Most of the time, the employee signs, and life is good. When they don't sign, we often find that that person has accepted an offer elsewhere and is milking us for a check.
baz00 3y ago
It's a brutally fair competence test. They were all cowboys and I left within the year.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

dmix 3y ago

You could easily get by by saying it was just a mix up and you emailed the wrong PDF. Not saying it's ethical though. I'm also not really sure which situations an employment contract would really hurt you in tech besides maybe some IP stuff. NDAs are usually separate.

constantly 3y ago
Not that I necessarily agree with the person you’re responding to, but their point seems to be that this is a bad faith action, not that they will get in trouble for it and need to cover it up with further bad faith.
caminante 3y ago
I inherit non-countersigned contracts frequently. IANAL,but they're still enforceable, especially in the grandparent's situation where the grandparent's work product was accepted and they were paid. There are realms of contract law where signature compliance is more prescribed like probate.
thayne 3y ago
> I'm also not really sure which situations an employment contract would really hurt you in tech besides maybe some IP stuff In my first contract for a dev job: - noncompete - agreement to work for a minimum amount of time, while my employer could terminate me at will (I don't think this one was actually enforceable where I live, since I didn't get a signing bonus, but I didn't know that at the time) - IP stuff - agreement to arbitration for any disputes (and employer chooses the arbitrator of course) I would probably dispute some of those now, but as at the time I was naive, fresh out of college. And even if I had pushed back, I didn't have much leverage. I had just moved, and had no money, I couldn't afford not to take the job.

rajamaka 3y ago

Is it rare to have 6 jobs in a career? I have had 3 in the last 5 years alone.

Filligree 3y ago
I would normally assume a year before a new employee is a net benefit; the first six months is mostly training. Someone who sticks around for less than two, we’d have been better off not hiring.

EGreg 3y ago

How does a handwritten signature prove anything? They are so easy to forge. I always wondered WHY ARE PEOPLE IN THE US ASKED TO SIGN A RECEIPT WHEN THEY PAY BY CREDIT CARD? I can draw literally any scraggles and they’ll accept it. Are they supposed to compare to the signature I put on my card?

LinAGKar 3y ago
Not just in the US. McDonald's does the same here in Sweden, or at least they used to (but AFAIK only McDonald's, and no one else). Always found that weird.
arcbyte 3y ago
The signature is just a physical manifesting of assent. It's presence is indicative that you've agreed to what you're signing. Signature comparison is a line of defense. More broadly, There's a whole set of practices that assume a relationship. You scoff at signatures, but in their heyday, my local banker knew me and knew my signature and he could spot a general forgery or even unusual patterns. Every economic transaction I engaged in came with a relationship that helped mitigate fraud. Even voting in the US today carries remnants of this. If you go to a small town to vote, you know the election workers and they know you. There's no need for an ID and there's no question of fraud. Everybody knows everybody. If you try to vote and nobody knows you, if you've got the paperwork, you'll get a smile and you'll vote, but you can bet your ballot is flagged for extra scrutiny afterwards. We need more of this system in the modern world.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Of course, even in large cities, IDs are not required for voting in many states. As you probably know, it's a very contentious topic.
  - arcbyte 3y ago
    Thats poor phrasing on my part. Voters dont generally need IDs in the US. I meant "need" in the sense that IDs aren't even a desired issue in the political process.

benj111 3y ago

Have you actually worked for a company? I doubt the parent did this in his first job, once you get to your 4th job, I can totally understand. Plus why is it bad faith? The employee is presumably expected to read the contract, or should they just trust the employer? By the same token, the employer should be expected to check that the employee actually agrees to the terms.

indymike 3y ago

> Seeing how you’re first action in each of your new jobs is done in bad faith This behavior is not bad faith, unless it is done with the intent to deceive the employer. It's on the employer to make sure documentation is done correctly. In my company, we catch these kinds of things when we are setting up payroll. Most of the time the employee genuinely forgot to sign, or read some creative advice on the internet. Most of the time, the employee signs, and life is good. When they don't sign, we often find that that person has accepted an offer elsewhere and is milking us for a check.

baz00 3y ago

It's a brutally fair competence test. They were all cowboys and I left within the year.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]