6 ms·

I'm starting to wonder if the "745 mile" claim is actually admission of technical failure. Think about it. If their battery really does have that capacity and c

I'm starting to wonder if the "745 mile" claim is actually admission of technical failure. Think about it. If their battery really does have that capacity and can "charge in 10 minutes" then why not a battery half or even a quarter the capacity? Perhaps this battery's maximum rate of discharge is so low that such a massively oversized pack is needed to get sufficient momentary power to the electric motors?

UncleOxidant 3y ago
I've been wondering the same. I'd be fine with a 350 mile range vehicle - it would cover more than 99.9% of all of my trips. It would be cheaper since presumably it would only need less than 1/2 of the batteries required to go 745 miles and also it would make the vehicle lighter. Not a lot of people actually need a vehicle capable of going 745 miles on a charge - most gas cars only go 400 to 500 miles on a tank of gas currently.
XorNot 3y ago
Yep, this is an excellent point: if you could get that sort of range, then most of the market would happily buy about a 1/4 of that provided the price was similarly much lower.
justapassenger 3y ago
You’re overthinking it. Range is main thing people worry about, especially ones with no EV experience (which is majority of the world). Big range is how to you get headlines.
- realusername 3y ago
  Yes, people have a very warped idea on how far they are actually traveling and focus on range at all costs.
  - xeromal 3y ago
    If you've actually driven an EV, you realize mileage is a crock of shit so getting 700 miles actually means you can not worry. * You can't use the bottom 10% without going against recommendations * You shouldn't charge above 85-90% to avoid going against recommendations * If you drive over 65 mph, the drain is above average. * If you tow a trailer, your range is halved. * If you install a little storage roof rack, you lose 20-30% of range * You experience 10% battery degradation in the first couple years of ownership. * 20% loss to cold weather (Thanks to a comment for this one) I really don't want a reply to this comment to be "Well...gas engines..."
    - mcswell 3y ago
      Most of those problems are exactly the same with ICE engines. You may not want that comment, but it's true. Except the roof rack one is bogus. I installed the cross bars of a roof rack on my Bolt EUV (it came with the rails), and afaict it affected my mileage not at all. I still get 320 to 330 estimated miles (against the EPA's 247 estimated miles). And the don't charge above 85--90% one is bogus too; there's talk about that on forums, but the manufacturer says nothing about it. And I wouldn't want to go below 10% on a gas powered car either...
      - xeromal 3y ago
        I'm open to you explaining how those ice issues are the same instead of just saying they are. Running your car to zero fuel may potentially damage your fuel pump while running your Tesla or electric car to 0% constantly will completely destroy the battery. Much more expensive issue. Someone can easily bring you a small Jerry can of gas if you run out while it's day near impossible to do the same thing for an electric car. It'll need to be towed.
    - realusername 3y ago
      I'm just going by the statistics, where I live (France), half of the workers are living less than 12km from their workplace. Right now, electric cars have improved and the ones being sold are in the 300km battery range. That's already overkill for most of the normal usage. People have a warped idea on how they are using their car and think they are doing way longer trips than the statistics tells you. I'm using an EV myself and I changed nothing to my behavior, everything is alright.
- bastawhiz 3y ago
  That doesn't really matter if the car is ludicrously expensive or the battery takes up too much space (or something else, like it's prone to bulging or spontaneous combustion). People don't worry about those things with today's EVs because they aren't problems. I have three EVs and no amount of range would overcome certain downsides.
  - justapassenger 3y ago
    You sound exactly like anti-EV people. I don’t need EV, it’ll be too expensive, etc, etc. Toyota, at least historicity, is targeting mass market, where they can make affordable and reliable car. Current EV works for you? Great! But it doesn’t for many others. I have EV and PHEV, and I won’t abandon my PHEV (big car) till battery is significantly better - I need a second big car, with a big range, that comes without any asterisks.
    - bastawhiz 3y ago
      I think you're missing the point: "range at all costs" isn't the answer if it means tradeoffs that most people wouldn't make. As the topmost comment said, if you can charge in ten minutes, why do you need 700 miles of range? They're talking about a battery that can get you from SF to LA and nearly all the way back in one charge. Who is making that trip without ten minutes to spare along the way? Every positive aspect to a battery (lacking some novel miracle) means a tradeoff. Faster charges? More weight. More capacity? Physically larger. Better heat management? More expensive materials. (Obviously just hypothetical examples) To the point of the root comment, 700+ miles of range is outrageous when you can refuel in nearly the same time as an ICE vehicle just doesn't make a lot of sense. So why bother accepting the other tradeoffs? Make a battery that's 500 miles and doesn't eat through tires nearly as fast due to weight. Make a battery that charges in 20 minutes instead of 10 and make the trunk a normal size. What technical challenges painted them into this specific corner that they're not talking about?
      - justapassenger 3y ago
        It’s trade off at all cost, according to you. Again, just because current tech works for you, it doesn’t mean it should stop there. I don’t understand why you’re so triggered that someone may get bigger battery. And why 500 is ok why 700 isn’t? 90% of people don’t need SUVs and trucks, yet they still dominate sales. And, 700 miles in EV, after you add all asterisks can easily become 350 miles.
londons_explore 3y ago
> Perhaps this battery's maximum rate of discharge is so low If someone invented a battery great in all dimensions except a low discharge rate, it would just be paired with a regular lithium battery to provide brief bursts of power for acceleration. In fact, thats the way most fuel cell vehicles work (fuel cells are expensive, so you use one as small as possible and use it at full power all the time, storing any excess in a regular battery)

UncleOxidant 3y ago

I've been wondering the same. I'd be fine with a 350 mile range vehicle - it would cover more than 99.9% of all of my trips. It would be cheaper since presumably it would only need less than 1/2 of the batteries required to go 745 miles and also it would make the vehicle lighter. Not a lot of people actually need a vehicle capable of going 745 miles on a charge - most gas cars only go 400 to 500 miles on a tank of gas currently.

XorNot 3y ago

Yep, this is an excellent point: if you could get that sort of range, then most of the market would happily buy about a 1/4 of that provided the price was similarly much lower.

justapassenger 3y ago

You’re overthinking it. Range is main thing people worry about, especially ones with no EV experience (which is majority of the world). Big range is how to you get headlines.

realusername 3y ago
Yes, people have a very warped idea on how far they are actually traveling and focus on range at all costs.
- xeromal 3y ago
  If you've actually driven an EV, you realize mileage is a crock of shit so getting 700 miles actually means you can not worry. * You can't use the bottom 10% without going against recommendations * You shouldn't charge above 85-90% to avoid going against recommendations * If you drive over 65 mph, the drain is above average. * If you tow a trailer, your range is halved. * If you install a little storage roof rack, you lose 20-30% of range * You experience 10% battery degradation in the first couple years of ownership. * 20% loss to cold weather (Thanks to a comment for this one) I really don't want a reply to this comment to be "Well...gas engines..."
  - mcswell 3y ago
    Most of those problems are exactly the same with ICE engines. You may not want that comment, but it's true. Except the roof rack one is bogus. I installed the cross bars of a roof rack on my Bolt EUV (it came with the rails), and afaict it affected my mileage not at all. I still get 320 to 330 estimated miles (against the EPA's 247 estimated miles). And the don't charge above 85--90% one is bogus too; there's talk about that on forums, but the manufacturer says nothing about it. And I wouldn't want to go below 10% on a gas powered car either...
    - xeromal 3y ago
      I'm open to you explaining how those ice issues are the same instead of just saying they are. Running your car to zero fuel may potentially damage your fuel pump while running your Tesla or electric car to 0% constantly will completely destroy the battery. Much more expensive issue. Someone can easily bring you a small Jerry can of gas if you run out while it's day near impossible to do the same thing for an electric car. It'll need to be towed.
  - realusername 3y ago
    I'm just going by the statistics, where I live (France), half of the workers are living less than 12km from their workplace. Right now, electric cars have improved and the ones being sold are in the 300km battery range. That's already overkill for most of the normal usage. People have a warped idea on how they are using their car and think they are doing way longer trips than the statistics tells you. I'm using an EV myself and I changed nothing to my behavior, everything is alright.
bastawhiz 3y ago
That doesn't really matter if the car is ludicrously expensive or the battery takes up too much space (or something else, like it's prone to bulging or spontaneous combustion). People don't worry about those things with today's EVs because they aren't problems. I have three EVs and no amount of range would overcome certain downsides.
- justapassenger 3y ago
  You sound exactly like anti-EV people. I don’t need EV, it’ll be too expensive, etc, etc. Toyota, at least historicity, is targeting mass market, where they can make affordable and reliable car. Current EV works for you? Great! But it doesn’t for many others. I have EV and PHEV, and I won’t abandon my PHEV (big car) till battery is significantly better - I need a second big car, with a big range, that comes without any asterisks.
  - bastawhiz 3y ago
    I think you're missing the point: "range at all costs" isn't the answer if it means tradeoffs that most people wouldn't make. As the topmost comment said, if you can charge in ten minutes, why do you need 700 miles of range? They're talking about a battery that can get you from SF to LA and nearly all the way back in one charge. Who is making that trip without ten minutes to spare along the way? Every positive aspect to a battery (lacking some novel miracle) means a tradeoff. Faster charges? More weight. More capacity? Physically larger. Better heat management? More expensive materials. (Obviously just hypothetical examples) To the point of the root comment, 700+ miles of range is outrageous when you can refuel in nearly the same time as an ICE vehicle just doesn't make a lot of sense. So why bother accepting the other tradeoffs? Make a battery that's 500 miles and doesn't eat through tires nearly as fast due to weight. Make a battery that charges in 20 minutes instead of 10 and make the trunk a normal size. What technical challenges painted them into this specific corner that they're not talking about?
    - justapassenger 3y ago
      It’s trade off at all cost, according to you. Again, just because current tech works for you, it doesn’t mean it should stop there. I don’t understand why you’re so triggered that someone may get bigger battery. And why 500 is ok why 700 isn’t? 90% of people don’t need SUVs and trucks, yet they still dominate sales. And, 700 miles in EV, after you add all asterisks can easily become 350 miles.

londons_explore 3y ago

> Perhaps this battery's maximum rate of discharge is so low If someone invented a battery great in all dimensions except a low discharge rate, it would just be paired with a regular lithium battery to provide brief bursts of power for acceleration. In fact, thats the way most fuel cell vehicles work (fuel cells are expensive, so you use one as small as possible and use it at full power all the time, storing any excess in a regular battery)