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To me Toyota has been one of the top car brands. Are they really just to be reckoned with now?

glogla 3y ago
In EV space, they're not even that. They have no competitive offerings and they wasted a lot of time going after hydrogen, which was shown to be not feasible like a decade ago. Their current hybrids are nice, though.
- SyzygistSix 3y ago
  Their current hybrids are great and very much in demand, especially the Prime models. Now if only Toyota could make anywhere near enough to satisfy that demand they would be doing really well. And an equivalent truck as capable and reliable as the Tacoma would probably ignite a sales frenzy. But whether they can't make the margins or don't have access to enough batteries, they can't seem to really perform in that space.
SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
Toyota has been a top car brand for a long time, their production capacity is huge, their build quality is high, their vehicle reliability is rightly praised. Every car band is moving into the EV space. These companies are lumbering beasts, but after moving with "deliberate speed" for a few years, it's becoming noticeable. I see electric VWs and BMWs on the roads locally, along with Hyundai, Kia, Polestar and of course Teslas. There are plenty of hybrid Toyota Priuses around, but for pure EVs, Toyota is the outlier, the laggard, the company that appears to have made the wrong bet and is now struggling to catch up. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-looks-overhaul-ev-strategy-new-ceo-takes-charge-2023-04-06 https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...
- worrycue 3y ago
  > now struggling to catch up How far are they behind really though? They have been working on hydrogen fuel cell (i.e. they generate electricity) cars ... isn't that practically the same thing except the power source is different? Serious question.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
    > Toyota have been working on hydrogen fuel cell, isn't that practically the same thing No, it's totally different. "Hydrogen-powered vehicles don’t need charging like an electric vehicle. You refuel them with hydrogen gas, pumped in the same safe and convenient way you would a conventional petrol or diesel car" https://www.toyota.co.uk/hydrogen/how-do-i-charge-a-hydrogen-car https://www.toyota.co.uk/hydrogen/how-do-i-charge-a-hydrogen... You can't fuel an hydrogen car on the new electric infrastructure, or vice versa. > isn't that practically the same thing except the power source is different Nuclear power stations and coal power stations are same thing except the power source is different. Sure, it's the same except for all the many things that are different.
    - worrycue 3y ago
      But the rest of the car is the same. Just the battery and its charging circuitry vs hydrogen fuel cell + pump mechanism(?) differs. Edit: And do they make plugin hybrids - https://www.toyota.com/priusprime/ https://www.toyota.com/priusprime/
      - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
        You can't fuel the one on the infrastructure for the other, and vice versa. EV charging infrastructure is happening, hydrogen infrastructure isn't. So Toyota's bet on hydrogen isn't paying off. Was that your question? If your question is "why isn't Toyota just catching up since the differences are so minor in my mind?" maybe ask them, but we haven't seen it happen yet. I've driven Toyotas and liked it, I'd welcome more Toyota full EVs, but they seem to be struggling with full EVs so maybe it's not that minor in practice. That's the main thing that I can tell you. I'm sure you can google on the topic, takes that are sympathetic https://insideevs.com/news/650150/toyota-says-ev-extremists-are-wrong/ https://insideevs.com/news/650150/toyota-says-ev-extremists-... mixed https://slate.com/business/2023/01/toyota-electric-vehicles-slow-why-hybrid-prius-bz4x-rav4.html https://slate.com/business/2023/01/toyota-electric-vehicles-... and negative https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toyota-faces-disaster-unless-new-ceo-performs-miracle-pivot-to-electric-vehicles/ https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toyota-faces-disaster-unless... I'll add a couple of things that I do know: car companies that have been in business for decades and operate at huge scale in big factory assumbly lines across global supply chains are, as I said above, "lumbering beasts", the new models are planned multiple years in advance. They don't turn on a dime, changes in Toyota management this year translate to new models on sale in 2026 or thereabouts. VW, BMV etc have a head start, as they have EV models out right now, and not the 1st generation of them either - e.g. I see VW ID3s locally, and the VW ID6 will be out by end 2023. Toyota's 2026 model will compete with an ID6 successor. And a Polestar 4 successor, etc. This is hard, from a standing start. You mentioned the Prius. Toyota owns this market, sure. I see lots of them around, it's the vehicle of choice for "minicab" private hire taxis. But for Toyota, that's also an barrier to doing anything that takes sales away from that market. If it was so easy to pivot to full EVs, would people be saying "Toyota faces disaster unless new CEO performs miracle" ?
simondotau 3y ago
> Are they really just to be reckoned with now? Given that they're claiming it'll make it into customer hands no earlier than 2027, and there's countless ways a new technology can take longer than predicted, and Toyota has no experience manufacturing battery cells anyway, no. They're still not a company "to be reckoned with" yet. Toyota might well end up being the Nokia of the EV world, modulo the Japanese Government's preparedness to do GM-style bailouts.

In EV space, they're not even that. They have no competitive offerings and they wasted a lot of time going after hydrogen, which was shown to be not feasible like a decade ago. Their current hybrids are nice, though.

SyzygistSix 3y ago
Their current hybrids are great and very much in demand, especially the Prime models. Now if only Toyota could make anywhere near enough to satisfy that demand they would be doing really well. And an equivalent truck as capable and reliable as the Tacoma would probably ignite a sales frenzy. But whether they can't make the margins or don't have access to enough batteries, they can't seem to really perform in that space.

SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago

Toyota has been a top car brand for a long time, their production capacity is huge, their build quality is high, their vehicle reliability is rightly praised. Every car band is moving into the EV space. These companies are lumbering beasts, but after moving with "deliberate speed" for a few years, it's becoming noticeable. I see electric VWs and BMWs on the roads locally, along with Hyundai, Kia, Polestar and of course Teslas. There are plenty of hybrid Toyota Priuses around, but for pure EVs, Toyota is the outlier, the laggard, the company that appears to have made the wrong bet and is now struggling to catch up. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota-looks-overhaul-ev-strategy-new-ceo-takes-charge-2023-04-06 https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyota...

worrycue 3y ago
> now struggling to catch up How far are they behind really though? They have been working on hydrogen fuel cell (i.e. they generate electricity) cars ... isn't that practically the same thing except the power source is different? Serious question.
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
  > Toyota have been working on hydrogen fuel cell, isn't that practically the same thing No, it's totally different. "Hydrogen-powered vehicles don’t need charging like an electric vehicle. You refuel them with hydrogen gas, pumped in the same safe and convenient way you would a conventional petrol or diesel car" https://www.toyota.co.uk/hydrogen/how-do-i-charge-a-hydrogen-car https://www.toyota.co.uk/hydrogen/how-do-i-charge-a-hydrogen... You can't fuel an hydrogen car on the new electric infrastructure, or vice versa. > isn't that practically the same thing except the power source is different Nuclear power stations and coal power stations are same thing except the power source is different. Sure, it's the same except for all the many things that are different.
  - worrycue 3y ago
    But the rest of the car is the same. Just the battery and its charging circuitry vs hydrogen fuel cell + pump mechanism(?) differs. Edit: And do they make plugin hybrids - https://www.toyota.com/priusprime/ https://www.toyota.com/priusprime/
    - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
      You can't fuel the one on the infrastructure for the other, and vice versa. EV charging infrastructure is happening, hydrogen infrastructure isn't. So Toyota's bet on hydrogen isn't paying off. Was that your question? If your question is "why isn't Toyota just catching up since the differences are so minor in my mind?" maybe ask them, but we haven't seen it happen yet. I've driven Toyotas and liked it, I'd welcome more Toyota full EVs, but they seem to be struggling with full EVs so maybe it's not that minor in practice. That's the main thing that I can tell you. I'm sure you can google on the topic, takes that are sympathetic https://insideevs.com/news/650150/toyota-says-ev-extremists-are-wrong/ https://insideevs.com/news/650150/toyota-says-ev-extremists-... mixed https://slate.com/business/2023/01/toyota-electric-vehicles-slow-why-hybrid-prius-bz4x-rav4.html https://slate.com/business/2023/01/toyota-electric-vehicles-... and negative https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toyota-faces-disaster-unless-new-ceo-performs-miracle-pivot-to-electric-vehicles/ https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toyota-faces-disaster-unless... I'll add a couple of things that I do know: car companies that have been in business for decades and operate at huge scale in big factory assumbly lines across global supply chains are, as I said above, "lumbering beasts", the new models are planned multiple years in advance. They don't turn on a dime, changes in Toyota management this year translate to new models on sale in 2026 or thereabouts. VW, BMV etc have a head start, as they have EV models out right now, and not the 1st generation of them either - e.g. I see VW ID3s locally, and the VW ID6 will be out by end 2023. Toyota's 2026 model will compete with an ID6 successor. And a Polestar 4 successor, etc. This is hard, from a standing start. You mentioned the Prius. Toyota owns this market, sure. I see lots of them around, it's the vehicle of choice for "minicab" private hire taxis. But for Toyota, that's also an barrier to doing anything that takes sales away from that market. If it was so easy to pivot to full EVs, would people be saying "Toyota faces disaster unless new CEO performs miracle" ?

simondotau 3y ago

> Are they really just to be reckoned with now? Given that they're claiming it'll make it into customer hands no earlier than 2027, and there's countless ways a new technology can take longer than predicted, and Toyota has no experience manufacturing battery cells anyway, no. They're still not a company "to be reckoned with" yet. Toyota might well end up being the Nokia of the EV world, modulo the Japanese Government's preparedness to do GM-style bailouts.