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Humans are certainly the absolute kings of tool usage. Examples in the animal world that we find impressive are things that even a human infant will trivialize

Humans are certainly the absolute kings of tool usage. Examples in the animal world that we find impressive are things that even a human infant will trivialize in short order. And if you think about it in this context, communication itself is really just another tool. It's taking something that's not particularly useful, the ability to make the same sounding grunt repeatedly, and turning it into something useful. Any animal that can move its body in a consistent way, make the same noise repeatedly, or do any other sort of repeated 'thing' has the ability to create an arbitrarily complex language. But they lack something enabling them to do that, and it seems whatever this something is - it probably wouldn't be terribly far from the same thing that enables meaningful, complex, and intricate tool creation.

Legend2440 3y ago
Right, but how many of these tools could you have invented (or even learned to use) by yourself, with no prior knowledge about tools to guide you? Even "primitive" tools like wooden bows and stone arrowheads are the result of generations of accumulated knowledge. You are as smart as you are because other humans taught you.
- flangola7 3y ago
  More than generations. The hand axe, a sharpened rock with no handle, was the apex of human technology for over one hundred thousand years. Even fire took tens of thousands of years to become a widespread tool.
  - ffhhttt 3y ago
    Back in the day human populations very absolutely tiny, supposedly being reduced to 10-30k as late as 75k years ago. I would expect opportunities for any meaningful innovation to be very limited at such low densities. Anything “invented” would likely stay within your group and be lost in a few generations. Then it would have to be rediscovered several times until it caught on amongst a larger population.
    - inglor_cz 3y ago
      Interestingly, even small and isolated human groups tend to have very rich oral culture. Why do people "innovate" their story-telling and songs so much faster than their tools?
      - Nasrudith 3y ago
        Because one is a vector for storing information which mutates over time while still preserving. Physical tools are more complicated, exist as discrete physical instances and knowledge depending upon skill to make it, component availability (needing flint for example), and mutation can occur seperately. Just because you used a partially burnt piece of wood to make a better spear doesn't mean you have the techniques for fire-hardening wooden weapons down.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > More than generations. The hand axe, a sharpened rock with no handle, was the apex of human technology for over one hundred thousand years. Even fire took tens of thousands of years to become a widespread tool. With `s/humans/homo sapiens/g` in the above paragraph, I believe that H sapiens was around for approx 300k - 400k years, and thrived in a variety of environments that would have killed them off if they did not have fire or sharpened rocks (skin animals for rudimentary clothing). This suggests, to me anyway, that your estimates might be erring on the side of caution. [WARNING: pure speculation ahead] Earliest H. sapiens remains in Africa date to approx 300k years ago. Around 150k years ago the climate was cold, dry and harsh (https://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercAFRICA.html https://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercAFRICA.html). If H. sapiens did not enter that climate already prepared, with generational knowledge of fire and sharp tools, they would have died out. This makes me think that they had already had widespread use of fire and sharp tools, plus sophisticated enough communications to pass this knowledge down for multiple generations prior to the climate change.
The_Colonel 3y ago
Communication is still pretty special as a tool. Humans evolved specific hardware to support it. While humans have evolved hands for tool usage, that's way more generic...

Legend2440 3y ago

Right, but how many of these tools could you have invented (or even learned to use) by yourself, with no prior knowledge about tools to guide you? Even "primitive" tools like wooden bows and stone arrowheads are the result of generations of accumulated knowledge. You are as smart as you are because other humans taught you.

flangola7 3y ago
More than generations. The hand axe, a sharpened rock with no handle, was the apex of human technology for over one hundred thousand years. Even fire took tens of thousands of years to become a widespread tool.
- ffhhttt 3y ago
  Back in the day human populations very absolutely tiny, supposedly being reduced to 10-30k as late as 75k years ago. I would expect opportunities for any meaningful innovation to be very limited at such low densities. Anything “invented” would likely stay within your group and be lost in a few generations. Then it would have to be rediscovered several times until it caught on amongst a larger population.
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    Interestingly, even small and isolated human groups tend to have very rich oral culture. Why do people "innovate" their story-telling and songs so much faster than their tools?
    - Nasrudith 3y ago
      Because one is a vector for storing information which mutates over time while still preserving. Physical tools are more complicated, exist as discrete physical instances and knowledge depending upon skill to make it, component availability (needing flint for example), and mutation can occur seperately. Just because you used a partially burnt piece of wood to make a better spear doesn't mean you have the techniques for fire-hardening wooden weapons down.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > More than generations. The hand axe, a sharpened rock with no handle, was the apex of human technology for over one hundred thousand years. Even fire took tens of thousands of years to become a widespread tool. With `s/humans/homo sapiens/g` in the above paragraph, I believe that H sapiens was around for approx 300k - 400k years, and thrived in a variety of environments that would have killed them off if they did not have fire or sharpened rocks (skin animals for rudimentary clothing). This suggests, to me anyway, that your estimates might be erring on the side of caution. [WARNING: pure speculation ahead] Earliest H. sapiens remains in Africa date to approx 300k years ago. Around 150k years ago the climate was cold, dry and harsh (https://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercAFRICA.html https://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercAFRICA.html). If H. sapiens did not enter that climate already prepared, with generational knowledge of fire and sharp tools, they would have died out. This makes me think that they had already had widespread use of fire and sharp tools, plus sophisticated enough communications to pass this knowledge down for multiple generations prior to the climate change.

The_Colonel 3y ago

Communication is still pretty special as a tool. Humans evolved specific hardware to support it. While humans have evolved hands for tool usage, that's way more generic...