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As long as resources are limited there will be money or an equivalent mechanism for valuing and controlling those resources. Resources can be anything from land

As long as resources are limited there will be money or an equivalent mechanism for valuing and controlling those resources. Resources can be anything from land, food, knowledge, political power, etc.

phatskat 3y ago
We are not short of housing or food. Artificial and market scarcity don’t make it so.
- yardstick 3y ago
  Both of those require resources. Or are you going to grow your own trees and build a log cabin yourself? How much time will that take? Can you build it by yourself or will you need someone elses help? These are all resources that are not unlimited, and there are trade offs whatever way you allocate said resources. Edit: also power, water, wastewater, internet for a house are services run using limited resources
  - phatskat 3y ago
    First off there’s lots of housing or housable space - office buildings with tons of vacant rooms, Airbnb style properties that are just profit machines, hotels rarely at capacity, abandoned or unaffordable houses, vacation homes. There’s plenty of housing. Then let’s talk about restaurants and grocery stores and farms and factories where food is routinely thrown away daily. Can’t let employees take food home from the fast food joint because then they’ll just make extra food, so instead you end up tossing tons of perfectly good food. I’d help my dad pick up “old” food from grocery stores for a local shelter and they had to still only take some because the volume of usable food being tossed was too much for one shelter. There’s plenty of food. Power, water, waste, internet - if suddenly everyone who didn’t have these things did have them, do you think the infrastructure would crumble? If, for instance, every vacant property that has working power/water/sewage/internet was filled, would that be too much strain? Would the system that was planned for that capacity buckle under the weight of what it’s made to bear? I don’t buy it.
    - autoexec 3y ago
      > Power, water, waste, internet - if suddenly everyone who didn’t have these things did have them, do you think the infrastructure would crumble? Overall you're right, but you also might be surprised at how fragile and insufficient our infrastructure is. There are many documented cases of problems with power delivery when sudden spikes in usage occur. There have been a few articles about it just this summer due to the record breaking heat. Internet services routinely oversell their service on the assumption that most people won't use what they pay for, and any customers who try to use every bit they're paying for will have their service disconnected. These restrictions are artificial too, people and companies pocketing millions (if not billions) in profits could easily improve their systems to meet higher demand but even though they are swimming in money and have everything they need they won't tolerate earning a penny less, and they act like they're dying when their profit increases if it doesn't also increase at least as much as it did last quarter. They just push all the costs to consumers and taxpayers who are already struggling under the unending greed of countless other people and companies. That's why the idea of giving people food, housing, and healthcare scares the shit out of some people. They know that somehow, they'll end up paying for it, even when the reality is that often their lives would be much better anyway. The truth is that it shouldn't have to cost the people who can least afford it.
      - phatskat 3y ago
        It is fragile and a lot does need to be done to make it more resilient - the incentive isn’t there under the current capitalist model. For example, in the US, power companies can’t make a profit from anything except doing new construction[1]. This is why we had the Camp Fire - a PG&E system had faults with no incentive to get fixed that eventually failed and led to a devastating wildfire. We can do these things, but the people most capable also happen to care the lease. [1] https://youtu.be/2n_au5Hje_E https://youtu.be/2n_au5Hje_E - Some More News - The Perverse Incentives of Utility Companies
    - c22 3y ago
      All the excess you cite is a result of this (albeit flawed) capitalist system we live with. I believe there will come a time where it is no longer necessary, but this will require levels of cooperation, education, and coordination that we are not nearly prepared to handle as a species. For what it's worth, I worked for a while at a fast food joint that did allow employees to take food home, or to make extra of it and just consume it on premises during lunch break. Leftover food was frozen and donated to a shelter twice a week. This place is still in business and as far as I know still operating with these policies. Cynacism aside, I don't even think the place is that unique. If you look around you will find lots of groups motivated by something more than just the mighty dollar, perhaps even most enterprise. This despite the corrosive effects of capitalism you're fretting over.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  on a global level, no. On a state level, especially a state like Califonia, it's more questionable but still feasible. Unfortunately, this is more of a city level issue where a disproportionate amount of people are in the large metropolitan cities of San Diego, San Franciso, and Los Angeles. It probably can be handled if we could move them to other counties, but other counties don't want to inherit that burden. Even if a few did they very likely lack the infrastructure and staff to really support something at scale (not necessarily ALL of these homeless, simply enough to start having the population decrease faster than new ones are created.
iancmceachern 3y ago
We are not resource limited. A B2 bomber costs 2 billion and we have 20.
- yardstick 3y ago
  What’s the debt level at now? 30+ trillion?
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    But that's just a made up number. The pentagon has failed 5 audits in a row. Money is not real.

phatskat 3y ago

We are not short of housing or food. Artificial and market scarcity don’t make it so.

yardstick 3y ago
Both of those require resources. Or are you going to grow your own trees and build a log cabin yourself? How much time will that take? Can you build it by yourself or will you need someone elses help? These are all resources that are not unlimited, and there are trade offs whatever way you allocate said resources. Edit: also power, water, wastewater, internet for a house are services run using limited resources
- phatskat 3y ago
  First off there’s lots of housing or housable space - office buildings with tons of vacant rooms, Airbnb style properties that are just profit machines, hotels rarely at capacity, abandoned or unaffordable houses, vacation homes. There’s plenty of housing. Then let’s talk about restaurants and grocery stores and farms and factories where food is routinely thrown away daily. Can’t let employees take food home from the fast food joint because then they’ll just make extra food, so instead you end up tossing tons of perfectly good food. I’d help my dad pick up “old” food from grocery stores for a local shelter and they had to still only take some because the volume of usable food being tossed was too much for one shelter. There’s plenty of food. Power, water, waste, internet - if suddenly everyone who didn’t have these things did have them, do you think the infrastructure would crumble? If, for instance, every vacant property that has working power/water/sewage/internet was filled, would that be too much strain? Would the system that was planned for that capacity buckle under the weight of what it’s made to bear? I don’t buy it.
  - autoexec 3y ago
    > Power, water, waste, internet - if suddenly everyone who didn’t have these things did have them, do you think the infrastructure would crumble? Overall you're right, but you also might be surprised at how fragile and insufficient our infrastructure is. There are many documented cases of problems with power delivery when sudden spikes in usage occur. There have been a few articles about it just this summer due to the record breaking heat. Internet services routinely oversell their service on the assumption that most people won't use what they pay for, and any customers who try to use every bit they're paying for will have their service disconnected. These restrictions are artificial too, people and companies pocketing millions (if not billions) in profits could easily improve their systems to meet higher demand but even though they are swimming in money and have everything they need they won't tolerate earning a penny less, and they act like they're dying when their profit increases if it doesn't also increase at least as much as it did last quarter. They just push all the costs to consumers and taxpayers who are already struggling under the unending greed of countless other people and companies. That's why the idea of giving people food, housing, and healthcare scares the shit out of some people. They know that somehow, they'll end up paying for it, even when the reality is that often their lives would be much better anyway. The truth is that it shouldn't have to cost the people who can least afford it.
    - phatskat 3y ago
      It is fragile and a lot does need to be done to make it more resilient - the incentive isn’t there under the current capitalist model. For example, in the US, power companies can’t make a profit from anything except doing new construction[1]. This is why we had the Camp Fire - a PG&E system had faults with no incentive to get fixed that eventually failed and led to a devastating wildfire. We can do these things, but the people most capable also happen to care the lease. [1] https://youtu.be/2n_au5Hje_E https://youtu.be/2n_au5Hje_E - Some More News - The Perverse Incentives of Utility Companies
  - c22 3y ago
    All the excess you cite is a result of this (albeit flawed) capitalist system we live with. I believe there will come a time where it is no longer necessary, but this will require levels of cooperation, education, and coordination that we are not nearly prepared to handle as a species. For what it's worth, I worked for a while at a fast food joint that did allow employees to take food home, or to make extra of it and just consume it on premises during lunch break. Leftover food was frozen and donated to a shelter twice a week. This place is still in business and as far as I know still operating with these policies. Cynacism aside, I don't even think the place is that unique. If you look around you will find lots of groups motivated by something more than just the mighty dollar, perhaps even most enterprise. This despite the corrosive effects of capitalism you're fretting over.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
on a global level, no. On a state level, especially a state like Califonia, it's more questionable but still feasible. Unfortunately, this is more of a city level issue where a disproportionate amount of people are in the large metropolitan cities of San Diego, San Franciso, and Los Angeles. It probably can be handled if we could move them to other counties, but other counties don't want to inherit that burden. Even if a few did they very likely lack the infrastructure and staff to really support something at scale (not necessarily ALL of these homeless, simply enough to start having the population decrease faster than new ones are created.

iancmceachern 3y ago

We are not resource limited. A B2 bomber costs 2 billion and we have 20.

yardstick 3y ago
What’s the debt level at now? 30+ trillion?
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  But that's just a made up number. The pentagon has failed 5 audits in a row. Money is not real.