4 ms·

Homeless shelters still exist too. It's not about what to call it, it's about whether people are forced to be there.

coldtea 3y ago
If homeless shelters are shitholes, neglected, understaffed, with indifferent and uncaring (or abusing) personnel, with no boundaries between the inmates, so that dangerous and unstable people make it hell for the more well adjusted homeless people living there without recourse, then many or most homeless are not going to want to stay there.
- mlyle 3y ago
  And if you have strong boundaries and rules, there's a subpopulation that won't be allowed to stay there. (Most places have something in-between: policies that exclude a fair number of homeless but still leave enough behavioral issues to produce dangerous and unpleasant places). Of course, resourcing is part of the problem, but it also just can't be one-size fits all.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    It's not just about policies, it's about the layout, affordances, staffing, and so on. If you're set to be stuffed like canned sardines in small rooms, for example, there are fewer boundaries regardless of "policy".
    - mlyle 3y ago
      Yes; I mentioned resourcing.
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  There's no reason to expect asylums to be any better, the only difference is that people are forced to be there. If we see that someone in freezing weather prefers sleeping outside to sleeping in a homeless shelter, we're forced to reckon with the fact that homeless shelters must be terrible. If we lock this person up in an equally terrible asylum, we can ignore that.
iancmceachern 3y ago
It's not nearly so simple, because people aren't so simple. Yes, in some cases people should be forced to be there. In other cases no way. It's not about a specific thing like this. It's about setting aside the resources as a society to deal with the problem, pay experts, and then do what they say. It will take time, we will have to course correct along the way, but we have to first agree to take the journey together.
iancmceachern 3y ago
Asylum does not necessarily mean people are forced to be there. You can go out, advocate or hell, even be a part of running one, defining rhe rules. You can make an asylum that doesn't do that. I'm behind you, when are you starting? We have lots of people that need help, please hurry.
kaitai 3y ago
A shelter is generally a place that you go to overnight, where you can't keep your stuff, you have to be out early in the morning and come back at a strict time in the afternoon or evening. Very different than an asylum which provides 24 hour care. Also, there are many homeless families (shelters don't serve them that well), but when it comes to mental illness it's not usually a family thing.
- amadeuspagel 3y ago
  > A shelter is generally a place that you go to overnight, where you can't keep your stuff, you have to be out early in the morning and come back at a strict time in the afternoon or evening. Of course you could imagine shelters where people are allowed to stay all day. Or housing first programs. The relevant difference is still whether people are forced to be there. > Also, there are many homeless families (shelters don't serve them that well), but when it comes to mental illness it's not usually a family thing. I'm not sure I understand this argument. Shelters don't serve families well because they can't stay there together, but this is not a problem for asylums, since asylums would only take those who are mentally ill — so families can't stay there together either, but that's not a problem in this case?

If homeless shelters are shitholes, neglected, understaffed, with indifferent and uncaring (or abusing) personnel, with no boundaries between the inmates, so that dangerous and unstable people make it hell for the more well adjusted homeless people living there without recourse, then many or most homeless are not going to want to stay there.

mlyle 3y ago
And if you have strong boundaries and rules, there's a subpopulation that won't be allowed to stay there. (Most places have something in-between: policies that exclude a fair number of homeless but still leave enough behavioral issues to produce dangerous and unpleasant places). Of course, resourcing is part of the problem, but it also just can't be one-size fits all.
- coldtea 3y ago
  It's not just about policies, it's about the layout, affordances, staffing, and so on. If you're set to be stuffed like canned sardines in small rooms, for example, there are fewer boundaries regardless of "policy".
  - mlyle 3y ago
    Yes; I mentioned resourcing.
amadeuspagel 3y ago
There's no reason to expect asylums to be any better, the only difference is that people are forced to be there. If we see that someone in freezing weather prefers sleeping outside to sleeping in a homeless shelter, we're forced to reckon with the fact that homeless shelters must be terrible. If we lock this person up in an equally terrible asylum, we can ignore that.

iancmceachern 3y ago

It's not nearly so simple, because people aren't so simple. Yes, in some cases people should be forced to be there. In other cases no way. It's not about a specific thing like this. It's about setting aside the resources as a society to deal with the problem, pay experts, and then do what they say. It will take time, we will have to course correct along the way, but we have to first agree to take the journey together.

iancmceachern 3y ago

Asylum does not necessarily mean people are forced to be there. You can go out, advocate or hell, even be a part of running one, defining rhe rules. You can make an asylum that doesn't do that. I'm behind you, when are you starting? We have lots of people that need help, please hurry.

kaitai 3y ago

A shelter is generally a place that you go to overnight, where you can't keep your stuff, you have to be out early in the morning and come back at a strict time in the afternoon or evening. Very different than an asylum which provides 24 hour care. Also, there are many homeless families (shelters don't serve them that well), but when it comes to mental illness it's not usually a family thing.

amadeuspagel 3y ago
> A shelter is generally a place that you go to overnight, where you can't keep your stuff, you have to be out early in the morning and come back at a strict time in the afternoon or evening. Of course you could imagine shelters where people are allowed to stay all day. Or housing first programs. The relevant difference is still whether people are forced to be there. > Also, there are many homeless families (shelters don't serve them that well), but when it comes to mental illness it's not usually a family thing. I'm not sure I understand this argument. Shelters don't serve families well because they can't stay there together, but this is not a problem for asylums, since asylums would only take those who are mentally ill — so families can't stay there together either, but that's not a problem in this case?