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> laptop The author buried the lede. Using a bare laptop all day will damage your health. To achieve an ergonomic posture [0], you have to be looking straight
by pkkm 3y ago
> laptop
The author buried the lede. Using a bare laptop all day will damage your health. To achieve an ergonomic posture [0], you have to be looking straight forward (or close to that) while your elbows are low and bent at an obtuse angle. This is impossible with a laptop, unless you basically turn it into a desktop by connecting it to an external keyboard, mouse, and monitor(s). Theoretically, you could use a laptop stand instead of an external monitor, but I've found that the letters on a laptop screen are small enough that they make me reflexively crane my neck forward.
Time spent using a laptop without external peripherals should be limited just like vibration and noise exposure is. You're always straining either your shoulders, your neck, or both.
It's surprising to me that the author is looking into niche products like sit-stand desks before having addressed the obvious problem that would be pointed out by any ergonomics resource on the Internet. It reminds me of the phrase, "don't major in the minors".
[0] https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/7-things-you-need-for-an-ergonomically-correct-workstation/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/7-things-you-need-fo...
- kwanbix 3y agoI connect my ThinkPad P51 to two external monitors, an external trackpoing keyboard 2, and a logitech trackpad. It works perfect, and if i need to work on the road, I just disconnect it and take it with me.
- Sardtok 3y agoTrackpads are horrible. Gives me way more strain than using a mouse, even though I have relatively small hands, I find the larger Logitech mice very comfortable in use. Currently using a MX Master 3, after switching from the original MX Master. Before that I had frequently recurring tendonitis in my right index finger and various pains in my lower right arm. I still occasionally have issues, but nothing like when I used to use a trackpad. I've never tried using an external trackpad. I suppose it could alleviate some of the issues, but I highly suspect my tendonitis would still come back.
- xeonmc 3y ago> Has a thinkpad > Uses an external trackpad ??? Why not just use the thinkpad with the lid half-open?
- inhumantsar 3y agoIt's funny to me that you're calling sit stand desks niche and suggesting that it shouldn't be one of the first things to look at when the second item the wirecutter article talks about is a sit/stand desk. Besides, standard external keyboards are not much more ergonomic than a laptop keyboard. They're typically only a little wider so the wrist placement is often still pretty bad. An external screen at the right height is going to be far more impactful than the keyboard until you get into ergo keyboards.
- me-vs-cat 3y agoWhile it's possible to use the laptop keyboard while looking at an external monitor, I don't think it's nearly as easy or beneficial as both an external monitor and a separate keyboard. The reason is because you're still going to use that screen, which leads to the original problem, or you won't use it and it gets in the way of the external monitor. Or even worse, you put it off to one side and the external monitor to the other side. So even if that separate keyboard is no better ergonomically than the laptop keyboard, it's still highly recommended. And let's be honest, it's hard for a non-laptop keyboard to not be better to use at a desk than even some of the best laptop keyboards. Not defending the other poster. Sit/stand desk shouldn't be the first adjustment you make, but it should be considered soon after the first. I emphasize the same for my team: get an external monitor, get a separate separate keyboard & mouse, and then either setup the laptop at a good height to be just another monitor or leave it closed while connected to the dock. (We provide this in the office, but we only provide a laptop & dock when they work from home.)
- owl57 3y ago> you won't use it and it gets in the way of the external monitor Did this with a Thinkpad X1 for some weeks recently. Unexpectedly, no trouble at all: the laptop is small and flexible enough to not get in the way at all. Built-in keyboard was worse than my tried and true KB-06X, better than some of the keyboards I came across in the office — but most of the days I just don't type enough for that to be important. External monitor and mouse are crucial though.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- r00fus 3y agoThe #1 thing that bothers me is that almost ALL desks are 30" height in the US. Completely unergonomic for anyone not 5'10" or taller. For example, the Ikea FLISAT desk still fits my teen kids even though it's for smaller kids (TBH I actually find it comfortable to work on occasionally). For my laptop, I do set my screen resolution much lower (doubled/retina) than my large monitor. Less real estate, but I don't have to squint when not using a monitor.
- coldtea 3y agoIsn't the chair + desk combo that matters? That is, can't you compensate the higher desk with adjusting the chair height or getting a taller chair?
- eBombzor 3y agoThen your legs aren't being supported.
- coldtea 3y agoOr you just put a footrest there?
- eBombzor 3y agoThe legs of the desk chair spiral outwards, please let me know how that rest goes for you.
- coldtea 3y agoThat depends on the chair. And if the legs "spiral outwards" one can even rest their feet on the legs. Mind blown?
- eBombzor 3y agoThat's only the case for people who are moderately short. The rest of us who have teen-length leg limbs need to put the chair all the way up to use a regular 30" tall desk, and at that point the legs are now too far away.
- iman453 3y agoCurious why you say vibration exposure should be avoided?
- dnissley 3y agoHand arm vibration syndrome
- pkkm 3y agoVibration White Finger / Hand-Arm Vibration Syndrome. Not really a concern for the occasional DIYer, but it can definitely happen to people who use tools like the hammer drill for hours per day.
- sgtnoodle 3y agoMy oscillating multi-tool is great for working on the house, but just murders my carpel tunnel.
- powersnail 3y ago> To achieve an ergonomic posture [0], you have to be looking straight forward (or close to that) while your elbows are low and bent at an obtuse angle. Curious: what about reading and writing posture? Traditionally, we look downward when reading and writing at a desk, rather than straight forward. Is that also non-ergonomic? I know that books can be supported up by a stand, but is there something for writing?
- mturmon 3y agoThis guy gets it: https://sawbridge.com/product/historic-jefferson-lap-desk/ https://sawbridge.com/product/historic-jefferson-lap-desk/
- pkkm 3y agoI'll be honest, I haven't done any research about the ergonomics of handwriting because I don't do it much anymore. I just know that when you're referencing paper documents while using a computer, a document holder is often recommended.
- Optimal_Persona 3y agoMy experience is 180 degrees the opposite. Had RSI and shoulder/neck issues for years until I threw away the external mouse & keyboard and committed to using a laptop in a standing position with a large monitor on a stand right above and behind it, both screen tops angled back a little so I’m looking down at them. Standing, I can be stepped back a little which means I don’t have to angle my elbows out to the sides too much, and my wrists are straight and relaxed. When I checked the Wirecutter link, I saw my setup (minus a chair) hits all the points. I can handle 8-12 hour days with frequent breaks.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- plonk 3y agoWas your keyboard elevate, at an angle, or thick? With a flat keyboard and an ergonomic mouse I’ve never had pain.
- FranzFerdiNaN 3y agoAny regular mouse, ergonomic or not, gives me wrist issues. Switched to a trackball and it all went away. Some things just don’t work for some people.
- xwdv 3y agoIf you’re sitting at a desk all day with a laptop you’re doing it wrong. Laptops are made to be moved around. You can lounge on a couch, or lay in a bed, thinking of solutions and occasionally sneaking a nap – working while dreaming. You can carry it to the kitchen, typing some text and reading some words while preparing a sandwich. You can even sit for a while and stand when you’d like. Laptops are made for working in odd places in odd positions, the variety reduces the possibility of strain.
- maremp 3y ago> Using a bare laptop all day will damage your health. Do you have any references to support this? A NY Times article on posture, littered with affiliate links, is not it. I am using only a laptop for the majority of my almost 10y career as a web developer, without any discomfort or pain, during or after. I've tried the "ergonomic setup" in many different variations and I always ended up with some pain, most often pain in wrist and lower arm, due to repeated movements between the keyboard and mouse/trackpad. Most important improvements for my setups were a good chair that allows shoulder and arm mobility (HM Embody) and a standing desk frame for precise height adjustment when sitting. And the macbook pro seems to have the perfect position of keyboard and trackpad so that I do not cause any strain on my wrists. But our bodies are different so there is no single best way, health damage is a bold claim without supporting literature.