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According to the histories levied by the Athenians. The Spartans left no written record and hardly any archeology.

by backtoyoujim 3y ago

morelisp 3y ago
> The Spartans left no written record and hardly any archeology. Which also suggests they kind of sucked.
- vasco 3y ago
  Or that they oriented their society towards war rather than writing things down. Sparta was a state of total war before total war was even defined.
  - morelisp 3y ago
    Just like we look to Somalia and Uganda today for the highest calibre soldiers.
    - Two4 3y ago
      Total war is distinct from civil war or regional conflict - none of the parties you mentioned are completely committed at every level possible to victory (or at least the other side losing). Britain and Germany can both be thought of as being in states of total war at varying times during WW2.
      - morelisp 3y ago
        If you draw this distinction it doesn't apply to Sparta either.
        vasco 3y ago
        They are not drawing the distinction, this is a specific definition that you decided to take offense to for some reason: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war It's not some political statement, all that was meant was that their whole society participated in the war effort and their education centered on fighting and survival rather than writing things down.
        morelisp 3y ago
        > their whole society participated in the war effort Right, and this is untrue of Sparta.
        vasco 3y ago
        I probably don't know enough about Sparta then. From what I thought I knew before your comments, I learned that they took the "teach kids to be fighters" to the extreme and they had the longest "education" period of any city states around them, mostly focused on skills for battle. Supposedly the old men were involved in this education, the kids were training, the men were fighting, and the women were supporting all of this. So that's what I was basing the thought of this type of society probably making it less likely that you have a bunch of scribes or other types of jobs being done that would be more likely to leave stuff written down.
        adamnaga 3y ago
        [flagged]
        morelisp 3y ago
        Congratulations! You are a total victim of this Spartan myth that the article author has often debunked.
        _Tev 3y ago
        Problem is, they taught only citizen kids to be fighters (skipping over what did they actually teach). When 80%+ of your society is not-citizens, then this has little relation to what the society is actually focused on.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Which also suggests they kind of sucked The Spartans were paranoid and insular. More likely than their being illiterates is that they destroyed their own records.
  - morelisp 3y ago
    > The Spartans were paranoid and insular. Which also suggests they kind of sucked.
    - GeorgeTirebiter 3y ago
      I suppose one has to ask the question, what is the definition of "suck"? For whom? When? Did the Spartans have an obligation to peoples unknown thousands of years in the future to write down what they were doing?
- kybernetikos 3y ago
  > Their city is not built continuously, and has no splendid temples or other edifices; it rather resembles a group of villages, like the ancient towns of Hellas, and would therefore make a poor show Thucydides.

According to the histories levied by the Athenians. The Spartans left no written record and hardly any archeology.

morelisp 3y ago

> The Spartans left no written record and hardly any archeology. Which also suggests they kind of sucked.

vasco 3y ago
Or that they oriented their society towards war rather than writing things down. Sparta was a state of total war before total war was even defined.
- morelisp 3y ago
  Just like we look to Somalia and Uganda today for the highest calibre soldiers.
  - Two4 3y ago
    Total war is distinct from civil war or regional conflict - none of the parties you mentioned are completely committed at every level possible to victory (or at least the other side losing). Britain and Germany can both be thought of as being in states of total war at varying times during WW2.
    - morelisp 3y ago
      If you draw this distinction it doesn't apply to Sparta either.
      - vasco 3y ago
        They are not drawing the distinction, this is a specific definition that you decided to take offense to for some reason: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war It's not some political statement, all that was meant was that their whole society participated in the war effort and their education centered on fighting and survival rather than writing things down.
        morelisp 3y ago
        > their whole society participated in the war effort Right, and this is untrue of Sparta.
        vasco 3y ago
        I probably don't know enough about Sparta then. From what I thought I knew before your comments, I learned that they took the "teach kids to be fighters" to the extreme and they had the longest "education" period of any city states around them, mostly focused on skills for battle. Supposedly the old men were involved in this education, the kids were training, the men were fighting, and the women were supporting all of this. So that's what I was basing the thought of this type of society probably making it less likely that you have a bunch of scribes or other types of jobs being done that would be more likely to leave stuff written down.
        adamnaga 3y ago
        [flagged]
        morelisp 3y ago
        Congratulations! You are a total victim of this Spartan myth that the article author has often debunked.
        _Tev 3y ago
        Problem is, they taught only citizen kids to be fighters (skipping over what did they actually teach). When 80%+ of your society is not-citizens, then this has little relation to what the society is actually focused on.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Which also suggests they kind of sucked The Spartans were paranoid and insular. More likely than their being illiterates is that they destroyed their own records.
- morelisp 3y ago
  > The Spartans were paranoid and insular. Which also suggests they kind of sucked.
  - GeorgeTirebiter 3y ago
    I suppose one has to ask the question, what is the definition of "suck"? For whom? When? Did the Spartans have an obligation to peoples unknown thousands of years in the future to write down what they were doing?
kybernetikos 3y ago
> Their city is not built continuously, and has no splendid temples or other edifices; it rather resembles a group of villages, like the ancient towns of Hellas, and would therefore make a poor show Thucydides.