5 ms·

Databag – tiny self-hosted federated messenger for the decentralized web

97 points by triyambakam 3y ago

opendomain 3y ago
How is this decentralized? The website says direct communication between app and server node. Decentralized would be peer to peer.
- PufPufPuf 3y ago
  Decentralized doesn't mean peer to peer. It merely means that there's no central provider -- for example, e-mail is decentralized, while Discord isn't.
- maxpert 3y ago
  Exactly my question as well? Its like saying Tabasco the sweetest honey in the market!
  - devpierre 3y ago
    decentralized as in no central server; p2p is not synonymous with decentralized.
- mhluongo 3y ago
  It also says "federated". Assuming that's actually the case, and that servers talk to eachother
- CuriousCosmic 3y ago
  It's decentralised as in federation. There is no central host, only instances that users can pick from (or self host). And to make it more than just a self hosted service, those instance hosts can link their networks together and allow users to interact across the greater web of federated instances. So it's decentralised in the sense that Mastodon or Matrix are.
- Ambolia 3y ago
  If the identity is based on a cryptographic key, I assume you can move your account to a different server? Even without help from the original server. But not sure how easy to move the contacts in that case.
- a2128 3y ago
  Distributed would be peer-to-peer. Decentralized can be client-to-node with no central node. A lot of people use these terms interchangeably and call distributed systems decentralized since distributed systems have no centralization either, but this system with federation is also a valid decentralized system
- Semaphor 3y ago
  This has a good explanation about the different types of networks, and how naming can get confusing: https://networkcultures.org/unlikeus/resources/articles/what-is-a-federated-network/ https://networkcultures.org/unlikeus/resources/articles/what...
pmlnr 3y ago
Is there anything this can do and XMPP with OMEMO can't?
- singpolyma3 3y ago
  Architecture looks identical to XMPP, just different tech stack.
  - greggsy 3y ago
    XMPP is fairly established and even supported through some enterprise platforms, so I’m unsure what problem this is trying to solve.
    - balzack 3y ago
      This project doesn't currently use a protocol besides http. It is mainly a rest api for the efficient event driven merging of multiple server side databases into a single client database. The initial motivation for this project (beyond wanting a sense of privacy) was not finding any chat service capable of running on low cost CE devices. To me this is critical for reaching an audience beyond tech enthusiasts. If this project continues to mature I could see it valuable to implement the XMPP or ActivityPub protocol, but I am not yet sure what that would mean. If it were to affect the execution requirements, then it should be implemented as a separate module with hooks into the core service.
    - hkt 3y ago
      Probably that xmpp server implementations and clients are both often dire heaps of legacy stuff. Plus, you know - more choice.
- t0astbread 3y ago
  Does XMPP do calls?
  - hkt 3y ago
    It does. See: jingle.
RileyJames 3y ago
I’m assuming this can only be used to chat with other users/instances of databag, for now. But is the vision to be able to “DM” with users on instances of mastodon, Lemmy, etc?? (anything that supports activity pub)
- vidarh 3y ago
  Wanted to ask the same. For any new decentralized service, my first question is this and if not whether they've thought through why/why not. There are many legitimate reasons why someone might not, but if they've not thought through them and whether or not they could achieve the same with extensions to ActivityPub I'm instantly sceptical.
  - balzack 3y ago
    The motivation for the project was mostly trying to see if a chat service could be run on low cost hardware, hence the reason for targeting RPi Zero. I would love to see other federated services running on home CE devices, but I don't see this happening with the execution requirements of services like mastodon or matrix. While those services are great and I use them, I think they lend themselves more to group hosting vs personal hosting.
    - vidarh 3y ago
      There's nothing in the ActivityPub spec that is particularly heavy. Mastodon is pretty much the heaviest possible ActivityPub option. If you want to handle just an individual account and especially if you want to handle mainly messenger style direct messages, you can do that with far lower requirements.
      - devpierre 3y ago
        If ActivityPub doesnt impose any restrictions on the data model and flow, then it should be possible to bridge an ActivityPub network.
sublinear 3y ago
Not a fan of this name. Dbag. Why not datasack? /s
miked85 3y ago
[flagged]

97 points by triyambakam 3y ago

How is this decentralized? The website says direct communication between app and server node. Decentralized would be peer to peer.

PufPufPuf 3y ago
Decentralized doesn't mean peer to peer. It merely means that there's no central provider -- for example, e-mail is decentralized, while Discord isn't.
maxpert 3y ago
Exactly my question as well? Its like saying Tabasco the sweetest honey in the market!
- devpierre 3y ago
  decentralized as in no central server; p2p is not synonymous with decentralized.
mhluongo 3y ago
It also says "federated". Assuming that's actually the case, and that servers talk to eachother
CuriousCosmic 3y ago
It's decentralised as in federation. There is no central host, only instances that users can pick from (or self host). And to make it more than just a self hosted service, those instance hosts can link their networks together and allow users to interact across the greater web of federated instances. So it's decentralised in the sense that Mastodon or Matrix are.
Ambolia 3y ago
If the identity is based on a cryptographic key, I assume you can move your account to a different server? Even without help from the original server. But not sure how easy to move the contacts in that case.
a2128 3y ago
Distributed would be peer-to-peer. Decentralized can be client-to-node with no central node. A lot of people use these terms interchangeably and call distributed systems decentralized since distributed systems have no centralization either, but this system with federation is also a valid decentralized system
Semaphor 3y ago
This has a good explanation about the different types of networks, and how naming can get confusing: https://networkcultures.org/unlikeus/resources/articles/what-is-a-federated-network/ https://networkcultures.org/unlikeus/resources/articles/what...

pmlnr 3y ago

Is there anything this can do and XMPP with OMEMO can't?

singpolyma3 3y ago
Architecture looks identical to XMPP, just different tech stack.
- greggsy 3y ago
  XMPP is fairly established and even supported through some enterprise platforms, so I’m unsure what problem this is trying to solve.
  - balzack 3y ago
    This project doesn't currently use a protocol besides http. It is mainly a rest api for the efficient event driven merging of multiple server side databases into a single client database. The initial motivation for this project (beyond wanting a sense of privacy) was not finding any chat service capable of running on low cost CE devices. To me this is critical for reaching an audience beyond tech enthusiasts. If this project continues to mature I could see it valuable to implement the XMPP or ActivityPub protocol, but I am not yet sure what that would mean. If it were to affect the execution requirements, then it should be implemented as a separate module with hooks into the core service.
  - hkt 3y ago
    Probably that xmpp server implementations and clients are both often dire heaps of legacy stuff. Plus, you know - more choice.
t0astbread 3y ago
Does XMPP do calls?
- hkt 3y ago
  It does. See: jingle.

RileyJames 3y ago

I’m assuming this can only be used to chat with other users/instances of databag, for now. But is the vision to be able to “DM” with users on instances of mastodon, Lemmy, etc?? (anything that supports activity pub)

vidarh 3y ago
Wanted to ask the same. For any new decentralized service, my first question is this and if not whether they've thought through why/why not. There are many legitimate reasons why someone might not, but if they've not thought through them and whether or not they could achieve the same with extensions to ActivityPub I'm instantly sceptical.
- balzack 3y ago
  The motivation for the project was mostly trying to see if a chat service could be run on low cost hardware, hence the reason for targeting RPi Zero. I would love to see other federated services running on home CE devices, but I don't see this happening with the execution requirements of services like mastodon or matrix. While those services are great and I use them, I think they lend themselves more to group hosting vs personal hosting.
  - vidarh 3y ago
    There's nothing in the ActivityPub spec that is particularly heavy. Mastodon is pretty much the heaviest possible ActivityPub option. If you want to handle just an individual account and especially if you want to handle mainly messenger style direct messages, you can do that with far lower requirements.
    - devpierre 3y ago
      If ActivityPub doesnt impose any restrictions on the data model and flow, then it should be possible to bridge an ActivityPub network.

sublinear 3y ago

Not a fan of this name. Dbag. Why not datasack? /s

miked85 3y ago

[flagged]