3 ms·

It would be easier for you, who (I suspect) has, like most of us here on HN, a good understanding of what happens on a computer, how to control that, how to man

It would be easier for you, who (I suspect) has, like most of us here on HN, a good understanding of what happens on a computer, how to control that, how to manage their software, how to be aware of what is on the foreground when and taking input when. How to recognise various applications and seeing the difference between materially different ones that try to look the same. Your notebook will look markedly different from a website that tries to imitate your notebook. Your password manager will only look markedly different from a website imitating your password manager if you have a certain level of awareness and acuity of what happens on-screen and what it means. I think GP's father doesn't have that awareness, and never will, by choice. They choose to spend their energy elsewhere. Younger generations had no choice and will have spent that energy already by the time they're 12 years old, and have these problems less.

samwillis 3y ago
> I think GP's father doesn't have that awareness, and never will, by choice. This! I mention password managers, two factor or just try and get him to improve his passwords and his eyes glaze over and can see him beginning to nod off. Probably somewhat my fault for always bring them up after a meal when he's probably already half way to napping...
- gcanyon 3y ago
  I wasn't trying to imply an actual password manager is as easy as a sheet of paper. I just meant that a simple text document would work as well, with find and replace, and the ability to easily make a copy of it for backup.
SoftTalker 3y ago
I think you sell older people short on what they are and aren't aware of. I think it's more that they see computer technology as a necessary annoyance of the modern world and not anything helpful. They used to manage their bank balance on a ledger in the back of their checkbook, and that seems easier to them than having to sit down in front of the computer or use an app on a small screen that's constantly throwing popups in their face, either ads or little "helpful tips" about this month's new features. I'm getting close to 60, but I've been programming and working with computers since in was in 6th grade. When I was in my 30s, paying my bills meant sitting down at the table once a month with my checkbook, stack of bills, and book of stamps. Open a bill, write a check, put a stamp on the envelope, repeat. It took maybe 15 minutes and was very easy. Compare that to opening a different website, with a different username and password and maybe TOTP code or SMS code, for each bill I need to pay. It's slower and more complicated. There is no online payment method I've seen that seems easier to me than just writing a check. Of course I rarely write checks these days, so I use the apps and websites and feel annoyed every time I do.
- tomsmeding 3y ago
  I am not at all claiming that all people above a certain age have difficulty with these things! Though it is usually people above, say, 40 who feel this way — and this is not a negative thing: it may well be just because they remember that a different way existed. I.e. most people with tech difficulties are older, but many older people have no tech difficulties. Though you are also correct that dealing with "technology" today requires a certain level of pain tolerance. Good UX exists but is rare, and authentication is still a mess basically everywhere if you don't want to do OAuth and centralise it to the behemoths. "Poweruser apps" can be extremely empowering, but always have a steep learning curve, sometimes very steep; they can help making your dayjob much easier, but typically help nought with, say, filing your taxes or paying your bills. Disclaimer: am 25 years old.
  - troupo 3y ago
    > Though it is usually people above, say, 40 who feel this way and immediately you write this: > Though you are also correct that dealing with "technology" today requires a certain level of pain tolerance. Good UX exists but is rare So it's not just 40+ year olds who feel this way
    - tomsmeding 3y ago
      The first was about having difficulty, the second about not liking it. Again, the (fuzzy, approximate) implication goes only one way: having difficulty breeds dislike, but dislike does not imply difficulty. EDIT: you are correct I didn't word my original message correctly. Perhaps you have a point.
- kelnos 3y ago
  > There is no online payment method I've seen that seems easier to me than just writing a check. Autopay. I only pay one bill manually, twice a year, because they don't allow autopay (property taxes). Otherwise I just don't think about it. Sure, you may not like autopay for whatever reason, but that's a choice. The option is there.
gcanyon 3y ago
My point wasn't that an actual password manager would be easier. My point was that a text document on the computer would be as easy/easier to keep track of than a piece of paper. It might reasonably be argued that it's less secure, since it's pretty hard to hack an air-gapped sheet of paper. But it's not harder to use.

samwillis 3y ago

> I think GP's father doesn't have that awareness, and never will, by choice. This! I mention password managers, two factor or just try and get him to improve his passwords and his eyes glaze over and can see him beginning to nod off. Probably somewhat my fault for always bring them up after a meal when he's probably already half way to napping...

gcanyon 3y ago
I wasn't trying to imply an actual password manager is as easy as a sheet of paper. I just meant that a simple text document would work as well, with find and replace, and the ability to easily make a copy of it for backup.

SoftTalker 3y ago

I think you sell older people short on what they are and aren't aware of. I think it's more that they see computer technology as a necessary annoyance of the modern world and not anything helpful. They used to manage their bank balance on a ledger in the back of their checkbook, and that seems easier to them than having to sit down in front of the computer or use an app on a small screen that's constantly throwing popups in their face, either ads or little "helpful tips" about this month's new features. I'm getting close to 60, but I've been programming and working with computers since in was in 6th grade. When I was in my 30s, paying my bills meant sitting down at the table once a month with my checkbook, stack of bills, and book of stamps. Open a bill, write a check, put a stamp on the envelope, repeat. It took maybe 15 minutes and was very easy. Compare that to opening a different website, with a different username and password and maybe TOTP code or SMS code, for each bill I need to pay. It's slower and more complicated. There is no online payment method I've seen that seems easier to me than just writing a check. Of course I rarely write checks these days, so I use the apps and websites and feel annoyed every time I do.

tomsmeding 3y ago
I am not at all claiming that all people above a certain age have difficulty with these things! Though it is usually people above, say, 40 who feel this way — and this is not a negative thing: it may well be just because they remember that a different way existed. I.e. most people with tech difficulties are older, but many older people have no tech difficulties. Though you are also correct that dealing with "technology" today requires a certain level of pain tolerance. Good UX exists but is rare, and authentication is still a mess basically everywhere if you don't want to do OAuth and centralise it to the behemoths. "Poweruser apps" can be extremely empowering, but always have a steep learning curve, sometimes very steep; they can help making your dayjob much easier, but typically help nought with, say, filing your taxes or paying your bills. Disclaimer: am 25 years old.
- troupo 3y ago
  > Though it is usually people above, say, 40 who feel this way and immediately you write this: > Though you are also correct that dealing with "technology" today requires a certain level of pain tolerance. Good UX exists but is rare So it's not just 40+ year olds who feel this way
  - tomsmeding 3y ago
    The first was about having difficulty, the second about not liking it. Again, the (fuzzy, approximate) implication goes only one way: having difficulty breeds dislike, but dislike does not imply difficulty. EDIT: you are correct I didn't word my original message correctly. Perhaps you have a point.
kelnos 3y ago
> There is no online payment method I've seen that seems easier to me than just writing a check. Autopay. I only pay one bill manually, twice a year, because they don't allow autopay (property taxes). Otherwise I just don't think about it. Sure, you may not like autopay for whatever reason, but that's a choice. The option is there.

gcanyon 3y ago

My point wasn't that an actual password manager would be easier. My point was that a text document on the computer would be as easy/easier to keep track of than a piece of paper. It might reasonably be argued that it's less secure, since it's pretty hard to hack an air-gapped sheet of paper. But it's not harder to use.