7 ms·
We probably will stop one day, but that day isn't yet for many services. There are people who would be unable to use those services if that can't set the passwo
by samwillis 3y ago
We probably will stop one day, but that day isn't yet for many services. There are people who would be unable to use those services if that can't set the password to either the same or a variant of one they always use.
In the tech wold we often forget that there is a wide disparity in people's ability to use tech. Take my father, there is no way he could use a password manager, or two factor, it's just never going to happen. He has a notebook of passwords, that's how he works and he won't change.
We cannot change everyones behaviour, no matter how much it would be better for them. That's a very well learnt lesson, over and over.
The world in 30 years time will be very different, the eldest generations will have grown up with passwords and the internet. Many will have been using password managers, 2 factor, other authentication systems and devices for much of their lives. It's going to be a slow, trickle down change, from "high tech" services down to everyday sites and systems.
- cm2012 3y agoIt's not just old people. I'd say 80% of people would not use a website with that system.
- xcxcx 3y ago[flagged]
- FredPret 3y agoYeah, shape up and learn to code, grandma! In all seriousness, tech must adapt to humans. Engineers are at their best when they aren’t dictators
- samwillis 3y agoGosh, you're fun.
- tylerrobinson 3y agoUsing economics terminology doesn’t make this insensitive opinion any more valid. Technology is for people, not the other way around.
- xcxcx 3y agoNobody gets to decide what's more or less sensitive. Younger generations can argue being rendered homeless due to mass housing affordability issues is also insensitive.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y agoCalling such people “technological deadweight” and “free riders” is the insensitive thing, regardless of the veracity.
- xcxcx 3y agoThat's your opinion. As a New Yorker my personal opinion is that people are, if anything, too sensitive in interpersonal communication. Yet akin to the article, because of the overly sensitive, everyone's expressive creativity must be dulled down. Who's the intolerant one? Reminds me of this classic https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y agoAh, that’s fair. My comment is phrased as though I’m presenting a fact. Perhaps “the things which are seen as insensitive” is better phrasing. I can agree that people are often over-sensitive but I wouldn’t expect that calling a person deadweight is likely to garner their thoughtful attention, precisely because it is disrespectful. Indeed, it would be foolish of me to expect them to start (or continue) listening to my words. Maybe you have better luck in New York but I bet you could find people (read: strangers whom you’ve never met or spoken to) there who are personally offended when you call them deadweight. If you’re walking somewhere and you see someone whom you think is homeless, do you let them know they’re deadweight to society? Do you think one is being over-sensitive if they become offended after they are simply called “stupid”? It might be worth explaining an opinion more instead of using such terminating cliches. Maybe because the one commenter used the phrase “insensitive opinion” there is a misunderstanding. I’m not trying to suggest that the opinion is insensitive, only the way it’s expressed. This opinion can be presented in a friendlier way, despite the topic. (It may also be worth pointing to four words in my initial comment: “regardless of the veracity”.) One can be tolerant of opinions while being intolerant of name-calling in a way that is compatible with not being the “tyrannical minority”.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- marcus0x62 3y agoYes, the abject failure of the tech industry to create usable and secure software is the fault of...checks notes...retirees.
- pierat 3y ago> There's a cost to society to carrying over such a technological deadweight loss and these people are free riders. The same capitalistic analysis can be said for fetuses, infants, and children up to working age. Is your proposal for infanticide the same as your gerontocide?
- _Algernon_ 3y agoA randomly generated password is not incompatible with the notebook approach...
- samwillis 3y agoIt is when they are all a variant of each other. I can't imagine him successfully writing down a bunch of none alphanumeric characters and not giving up.
- orev 3y agoA randomly generated pass-phrase can be both secure and easy to remember/write down.
- cubefox 3y agoIt can, but it's very unlikely. Most randomly generated data doesn't have a memorable structure.
- orev 3y agoPlease pay attention to the use of pass-PHRASE. Pass-phrases are well understood at this point as far as what they are and how to generate them securely. A key point is that they’re much longer so have plenty of entropy to resist cracking attempts.
- janalsncm 3y agoThe article is discussing the merits of letting users generate their own passwords at all. So unless you can guarantee the website will generate nice pass phrases, you’ll have to account for weird characters too.
- ewi_ 3y agoA password manager can generate nice passphrases. Really, generating a nice and secure passphrase is no different from a nice and secure password at this point. It's all about entropy and byte mapping.
- needle0 3y agoGonna be eagerly waiting for the time when we can finally change our behavior at will, be it neural implants or nanomachines or whatever other method of direct intervention to the brain.
- wahnfrieden 3y agowe have less invasive solutions available already
- gcanyon 3y ago> Take my father, there is no way he could use a password manager...He has a notebook of passwords Your father does use a password manager: a slow, very inconvenient one. If you could teach him to reach for ctrl-c/ctrl-v instead of a pencil, it would be easier for him.
- scrollaway 3y agoIndeed. I have converted my mother to 1Password and it’s working great for her once she got past the initial learning curve.
- tomsmeding 3y agoIt would be easier for you, who (I suspect) has, like most of us here on HN, a good understanding of what happens on a computer, how to control that, how to manage their software, how to be aware of what is on the foreground when and taking input when. How to recognise various applications and seeing the difference between materially different ones that try to look the same. Your notebook will look markedly different from a website that tries to imitate your notebook. Your password manager will only look markedly different from a website imitating your password manager if you have a certain level of awareness and acuity of what happens on-screen and what it means. I think GP's father doesn't have that awareness, and never will, by choice. They choose to spend their energy elsewhere. Younger generations had no choice and will have spent that energy already by the time they're 12 years old, and have these problems less.
- samwillis 3y ago> I think GP's father doesn't have that awareness, and never will, by choice. This! I mention password managers, two factor or just try and get him to improve his passwords and his eyes glaze over and can see him beginning to nod off. Probably somewhat my fault for always bring them up after a meal when he's probably already half way to napping...
- gcanyon 3y agoI wasn't trying to imply an actual password manager is as easy as a sheet of paper. I just meant that a simple text document would work as well, with find and replace, and the ability to easily make a copy of it for backup.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago> He has a notebook of passwords, that's how he works and he won't change. A notebook in a locked safe is the most secure datastore for 90 - 98% of the population - depending of how deeply you distrust NSA.
- highwaylights 3y agoThis is only true if you’re very selective about which threats you want to acknowledge. If someone breaks into my house I’d rather they just got my TV and some belongings rather than my life savings.
- NegativeK 3y agoMost people are more at risk from bad passwords and website breaches than from home burglary.
- Y-bar 3y agoI'd wager that >99% of all burglaries are looking for physical possessions which can be sold for a quick buck. Not looking for random notebooks of passwords. So locking it in a safe might not be optimal because it will be like putting a spotlight on it.
- samwillis 3y agoSomething like 90% of burglaries are looking for car keys. That's why I keep my keys by the front door in eyesight on anyone who comes in. I have insurance, and don't want a thug wandering around my house.
- anderspitman 3y agoIs the cost of getting phished really lower than the cost of learning a password manager for your dad?
- samwillis 3y agoIs the cost of lung cancer lower than smoking? Some people will just never change a behaviour.
- anderspitman 3y agoI find there are generally two reasons people use analogies. The first is to make a concept easier to understand. The second is to subtly change what is being argued in order to make their position seem stronger. I did the second for years without realizing what I was doing, and still fall into the trap.
- samwillis 3y agoOr the third to to illustrate the argument in another context. I usually avoid analogies of HN as you are often called out on the technicalities of them. And you are right that can often damage an argument. However, I have argued that changing peoples behaviour, even when their current behaviour is bad for them, is often impossible despite all evidence, from the beginning.
- anderspitman 3y ago> Or the third to to illustrate the argument in another context. This is still case 1. I actually agree with you that some people with bad security habits will never change their behavior, but do you really feel that someone using passwords in a notebook because that's what they're comfortable with is in the same class of behavior as someone addicted to nicotine? Feel free to have the last word here. 1 on 1 HN threads more than 3 deep rarely result in productive conversation. Cheers
- Eisenstein 3y ago
- comboy 3y ago> He has a notebook of passwords, that's how he works and he won't change. So do I for some passwords, physical security is way easier.
- lll-o-lll 3y ago> Take my father, there is no way he could use a password manager, or two factor, it's just never going to happen. Have you tried the “passkey” integration on Apple devices? If so, do you think your father would be able to use that? To me, it seems such a simple UX that I can’t imagine even the most technically illiterate being unable to use it. In the Apple ecosystem, there is literally no configuration for the “password manager” it’s just integrated into the Apple Account. You’d go from a notebook of passwords to just one (the main Apple ID password, for recovery etc). Obviously “passkey” is not available in most sites yet, but I imagine that once it is, the switch might be pretty painless for the non-tech savvy. Assuming the other device manufacturers can provide similar seamless integration.
- wilg 3y agoYeah, exactly. The writing is on the wall for password based authentication. I think this is all going to look very different in a year or two.