7 ms·

Not sure how that’s relevant here. Worker owner co ops and tank style communism are vastly different things

smsm42 3y ago
The guy is a communist (yeah I know "democratic socialist", same beer, differeng label), it's a fact, and no communist can be ignorant of the mass crimes communist governments committed and keep committing, and of gigantic failures they presided over. If he still chooses to march under that banner, that tells us something about him, and making conclusions based on that is appropriate. That doesn't mean the business he's associated with will fail as a worker coop - maybe not, but it's still not entirely irrelevant.
- smcl 3y ago
  Alright so "I don't like the left" - loud and clear. Thanks for your input.
  - smsm42 3y ago
    History us not just an opinion, it's not subject to personal likes or dislikes. And the modern history offers plenty of support for my "not like".
    - smcl 3y ago
      An American volunteered to fight ISIS and helped fight for workers rights in a brewery. That's about as close to an American hero as you can possibly be. If you're not happy with that and want to cast all sorts of other aspersions on him then I don't know what to tell you. If you're looking for someone to debate some kind of "-ism" then I suggest you check out Twitter or Reddit.
- r00fus 3y ago
  > no communist can be ignorant of the mass crimes communist governments committed and keep committing You fail to contrast with the even larger atrocities committed by non-communist governments.
  - smsm42 3y ago
    I don't see how this is an argument. When we say we must condemn nazis for crimes against humanity - do you raise an objection that "non-nazis committed crimes too, and if we sum up all the crimes in history of humanity, they'd surely dwarf the nation crimes?" I don't think so. Pointing to somebody else having committed a crime is not a defense.
    - r00fus 3y ago
      The real argumentation is the numbers. The claimant has to bring the data. So where's your data?
      - leansensei 3y ago
        Mao's Great Leap Forward The Khmer Rouge's Killing Fields Stalin's gulags Plenty of numbers if you know history.
        _lvbh 3y ago
        Dictators should not be considered communists, especially not “democratic socialist”
        smsm42 3y ago
        Thank you for providing the obligatory "real communism has never been tried" remark. You service is appreciated.
        smcl 3y ago
        It's becoming clear that you think "socialism" just means "the scary politics that foreign people have" and don't actually understand it, otherwise you'd know what GP meant by this remark. At the very least you should try to understand what you think you oppose, because it sounds like you heard your dad complaining about some non-right-wing party then took that as your own politics and ran with it.
- Shawnj2 3y ago
  Equating workers sharing ownership of a business and oppressive communist governments that sent people to gulags is a bit ridiculous. “Your business must be owned by a single rich person or a bunch of shareholders who aren’t workers themselves, and if it’s not then you support starvation prisons”…? I’m not even talking about democratic socialism, I was just talking about worker co ops (although if you think places like Scandinavia are as bad as Soviet Russia then you should probably study both more)

The guy is a communist (yeah I know "democratic socialist", same beer, differeng label), it's a fact, and no communist can be ignorant of the mass crimes communist governments committed and keep committing, and of gigantic failures they presided over. If he still chooses to march under that banner, that tells us something about him, and making conclusions based on that is appropriate. That doesn't mean the business he's associated with will fail as a worker coop - maybe not, but it's still not entirely irrelevant.

smcl 3y ago
Alright so "I don't like the left" - loud and clear. Thanks for your input.
- smsm42 3y ago
  History us not just an opinion, it's not subject to personal likes or dislikes. And the modern history offers plenty of support for my "not like".
  - smcl 3y ago
    An American volunteered to fight ISIS and helped fight for workers rights in a brewery. That's about as close to an American hero as you can possibly be. If you're not happy with that and want to cast all sorts of other aspersions on him then I don't know what to tell you. If you're looking for someone to debate some kind of "-ism" then I suggest you check out Twitter or Reddit.
r00fus 3y ago
> no communist can be ignorant of the mass crimes communist governments committed and keep committing You fail to contrast with the even larger atrocities committed by non-communist governments.
- smsm42 3y ago
  I don't see how this is an argument. When we say we must condemn nazis for crimes against humanity - do you raise an objection that "non-nazis committed crimes too, and if we sum up all the crimes in history of humanity, they'd surely dwarf the nation crimes?" I don't think so. Pointing to somebody else having committed a crime is not a defense.
  - r00fus 3y ago
    The real argumentation is the numbers. The claimant has to bring the data. So where's your data?
    - leansensei 3y ago
      Mao's Great Leap Forward The Khmer Rouge's Killing Fields Stalin's gulags Plenty of numbers if you know history.
      - _lvbh 3y ago
        Dictators should not be considered communists, especially not “democratic socialist”
        smsm42 3y ago
        Thank you for providing the obligatory "real communism has never been tried" remark. You service is appreciated.
        smcl 3y ago
        It's becoming clear that you think "socialism" just means "the scary politics that foreign people have" and don't actually understand it, otherwise you'd know what GP meant by this remark. At the very least you should try to understand what you think you oppose, because it sounds like you heard your dad complaining about some non-right-wing party then took that as your own politics and ran with it.
Shawnj2 3y ago
Equating workers sharing ownership of a business and oppressive communist governments that sent people to gulags is a bit ridiculous. “Your business must be owned by a single rich person or a bunch of shareholders who aren’t workers themselves, and if it’s not then you support starvation prisons”…? I’m not even talking about democratic socialism, I was just talking about worker co ops (although if you think places like Scandinavia are as bad as Soviet Russia then you should probably study both more)