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What do you propose, NATO escorting ships bound for Odessa and getting in an open armed conflict with Russia so that South Africa and other friends of Russia, a

by petre 3y ago

What do you propose, NATO escorting ships bound for Odessa and getting in an open armed conflict with Russia so that South Africa and other friends of Russia, avoid food shortages? Sorry, that ain't happening. Best outcome would be if our man Erdogan can convince Putin to sign another grain deal in any other form, but I doubt it, because the latter made some outrageous requests to do so. Or if the West arms Ukraine with ground launched Harpoon missiles, so that the Kremlin chicken out and avoid exposing their Black Sea fleet to the same fate as Moskva's. There is also the solution of sending the ships through Romania and Bulgaria's territorial waters. Then the Russians can bitch about hidden weapons as much as they like.

lenkite 3y ago
"but I doubt it, because the latter made some outrageous requests to do so." Weren't these "outrageous requests" signed on in the parallel memorandum of understanding (MoU) ? They included removal of sanctions on the main Russian agricultural bank and Russian fertilizers. Russia has stated said as soon as those terms in the memorandum are implemented, they will resume the grain deal.
- petre 3y ago
  Good luck with that. It's essentially blackmail, just like with the "roll NATO back to 1991, remove anti ICBM systems from Eastern Europe" outrageous requests. It's easier and more effective to weaponize Ukraine and harden NATO's Eastern flank. The US in contrast with Russia respects the memorandums it signed, like the Budapest memorandum.
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  Those are outrageous requests. The very effective sanctions are a large part of their non-military punishment.
spywaregorilla 3y ago
> What do you propose, NATO escorting ships bound for Odessa and getting in an open armed conflict with Russia so that South Africa and other friends of Russia, avoid food shortages? Yes. Fuck around and find out. Russia does not have the military capability to fight another war. They'd be complete idiots to attack a western warship. They would simply lose. You don't need to declare war to destroy a ship attacking yours. Russia's threats are as idle as their constant nuclear threats.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- petre 3y ago
  Not happening. Warships are currently barred by Türkye from entering the Black Sea through the Bosphorus, unless returning to base. The only NATO warships that could escort civillian ships bound for Odessa are Turkish, Bulgarian or Romanian. https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/02/turkey-closes-the-dardanelles-and-bosphorus-to-warships/ https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/02/turkey-closes-t... What might be happening is arming Ukraine with ground launched anti ship missile systems: https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/06/polish-coastal-defence-system-with-nsm-missiles-for-ukraine/ https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/06/polish-coastal-... The Biden administration, along with the rest of NATO does not want to escalate and engage in a war with Russia. Not over Ukraine, not over the food security of Putin or Xi's partners. Egypt, Nigeria or South Africa not getting their grain only puts further pressure on the Kremlin to end this war. Declarations of war have been exceedingly uncommon since the end of World War II.
  - spywaregorilla 3y ago
    > Not happening. Warships are currently barred by Türkye from entering the Black Sea through the Bosphorus, unless returning to base. The only NATO warships that could escort civillian ships bound for Odessa are Turkish, Bulgarian or Romanian. Not true. Your own link states as much "the Turkish government appears to have exercised its rights under Article 21, which states that passage of warships should be wholly at the discretion of the Turkish Government when it feels itself to be threatened with imminent danger of war." At least in the sense that the US could publicly request to do this and Turkey would need to respond. > The Biden administration, along with the rest of NATO does not want to escalate and engage in a war with Russia. Not over Ukraine, not over the food security of Putin or Xi's partners. Egypt, Nigeria or South Africa not getting their grain only puts further pressure on the Kremlin to end this war. Agreed. Escorting grain ships is not a declaration of war. Nor is returning fire. Note, these countries not getting grain raises food prices for everyone. This is problematic for most countries. Not Russia as Russia is food secure.

by petre 3y ago

lenkite 3y ago

"but I doubt it, because the latter made some outrageous requests to do so." Weren't these "outrageous requests" signed on in the parallel memorandum of understanding (MoU) ? They included removal of sanctions on the main Russian agricultural bank and Russian fertilizers. Russia has stated said as soon as those terms in the memorandum are implemented, they will resume the grain deal.

petre 3y ago
Good luck with that. It's essentially blackmail, just like with the "roll NATO back to 1991, remove anti ICBM systems from Eastern Europe" outrageous requests. It's easier and more effective to weaponize Ukraine and harden NATO's Eastern flank. The US in contrast with Russia respects the memorandums it signed, like the Budapest memorandum.
spywaregorilla 3y ago
Those are outrageous requests. The very effective sanctions are a large part of their non-military punishment.

spywaregorilla 3y ago

> What do you propose, NATO escorting ships bound for Odessa and getting in an open armed conflict with Russia so that South Africa and other friends of Russia, avoid food shortages? Yes. Fuck around and find out. Russia does not have the military capability to fight another war. They'd be complete idiots to attack a western warship. They would simply lose. You don't need to declare war to destroy a ship attacking yours. Russia's threats are as idle as their constant nuclear threats.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
petre 3y ago
Not happening. Warships are currently barred by Türkye from entering the Black Sea through the Bosphorus, unless returning to base. The only NATO warships that could escort civillian ships bound for Odessa are Turkish, Bulgarian or Romanian. https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/02/turkey-closes-the-dardanelles-and-bosphorus-to-warships/ https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/02/turkey-closes-t... What might be happening is arming Ukraine with ground launched anti ship missile systems: https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/06/polish-coastal-defence-system-with-nsm-missiles-for-ukraine/ https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/06/polish-coastal-... The Biden administration, along with the rest of NATO does not want to escalate and engage in a war with Russia. Not over Ukraine, not over the food security of Putin or Xi's partners. Egypt, Nigeria or South Africa not getting their grain only puts further pressure on the Kremlin to end this war. Declarations of war have been exceedingly uncommon since the end of World War II.
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  > Not happening. Warships are currently barred by Türkye from entering the Black Sea through the Bosphorus, unless returning to base. The only NATO warships that could escort civillian ships bound for Odessa are Turkish, Bulgarian or Romanian. Not true. Your own link states as much "the Turkish government appears to have exercised its rights under Article 21, which states that passage of warships should be wholly at the discretion of the Turkish Government when it feels itself to be threatened with imminent danger of war." At least in the sense that the US could publicly request to do this and Turkey would need to respond. > The Biden administration, along with the rest of NATO does not want to escalate and engage in a war with Russia. Not over Ukraine, not over the food security of Putin or Xi's partners. Egypt, Nigeria or South Africa not getting their grain only puts further pressure on the Kremlin to end this war. Agreed. Escorting grain ships is not a declaration of war. Nor is returning fire. Note, these countries not getting grain raises food prices for everyone. This is problematic for most countries. Not Russia as Russia is food secure.