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>There is a stigma associated with failure that society still hasn't accepted. I don't think that the stigma is only associated with failure, but also with lac

>There is a stigma associated with failure that society still hasn't accepted. I don't think that the stigma is only associated with failure, but also with lacking talent/gift. Founders, developers, etc. simply want to look pristine, flawless, gifted. The mythical unicorn who "everything who touches turns to success" and any setback or effort is downplayed. In the company I previously worked for as a junior developer I had 2 colleagues. Let's call them Tom and Bob. I once made the mistake of asking for feedback on how to improve from Tom. And the mistake I made was thinking that his feedback would focus on maximizing constructiveness aka. inform me with ways that would be actionable for me. When I asked him how to "become as good as you are" what he instead gave me as an answer was "my brain simply works differently". We can argue over whether I asked the right or wrong question and I will agree with you that perhaps if the question was posed differently the answer may have been more constructive. However, I don't think that this detracts anything from my original point: When communicating, especially in career/business contexts, we have multiple goals in mind. And one of the goals that we have is to ensure that we don't show to others how hard we had to work, or how many times we failed until we understood a concept. And this need will never ever go away, because impressions and perceptions are important. It's also the reason why companies will insist on keeping in their job openings "call for talents", "seeking talented developers", etc. I've even seen Linkedin job posts with 200+ applicants and at first was impressed, but then found out that some companies just reopen the same job ad to avoid resetting the counter because apparently having "200+ applicants" is giving the impression that lots of developers out there who would do anything to join them. You'll always have people or/and companies that prettify or up-sell something they did because (especially in career contexts) perception and impression is important, and it's not just about being constructive/educational to other founders/developers etc. but to also look great while doing it.

throwaway22032 3y ago
I agree with the thrust of your post, but sometimes people simply can't give advice on certain matters because they don't face the same challenges that you do. I had a brilliant professor once, aware of the fact that he didn't really actually need to try, he was just incredibly gifted as a mathematician and for him undergrad was a walk in the park. He knew that he could teach us, but dealing with "the struggle" wasn't something he could empathise with. People often ask me how I had the motivation/discipline or drive to achieve certain long term goals and my honest answer is that they just didn't seem optional to me, like how one might brush their teeth without thinking. I couldn't give actionable advice to someone who, for example, "wants to get in shape" beyond what are essentially tautologies like just eat less and exercise more.
- twelve40 3y ago
  > I couldn't give actionable advice to someone who, for example, "wants to get in shape" beyond what are essentially tautologies like just eat less and exercise more but that doesn't even sound right. there are a million life hacks (real, good-natured ones like "start small", "make healthy things convenient" etc) you could share to help or to encourage someone facing that wall other than "just be like me" or "obey the laws of physics". If you cared enough about helping them, I guess.
antonvs 3y ago
> When I asked him how to "become as good as you are" This is an almost insulting question. What are you expecting, some magic trick? Go spend years studying, working hard, and focusing on improving yourself.
- mdp2021 3y ago
  Other people, in the group of those who make their own business to study success, swear that asking people how they became so good at what they do is a core recipe. (Good old Brian Tracy is the first that comes to mind: "never amounted to much until asked the right guy the right advice".) And you are posting precisely in a place where we share.
  - antonvs 3y ago
    Never thought I'd see motivational speakers trotted out on HN as a source. What does Tony Robbins have to say on the subject?
    - mdp2021 3y ago
      > What does Tony Robbins have to say on the subject Substantially the same. You want to learn something, go ask those who can teach you something. Or, you can work on your own, build up competence without insights, and collect those insights all out of your experience in the span of decades. > as a source It's good sense, not authority.
      - antonvs 3y ago
        It's not good sense at all, it's completely irrelevant to this scenario. The kind of "success" those people are talking about is not becoming an expert at some technical discipline. Their main achievement is to convince susceptible people that they have something useful to say. The correct answer to this issue was given over 2,200 years ago, when King Ptolemy I is said to have asked Euclid if there was not a shorter road to geometry than through Euclid's Elements, to which Euclid replied that "there is no royal road to geometry." > You want to learn something, go ask those who can teach you something This is not about whether you accept instruction from experts. It was specifically a response to the question "how to become as good as you are." That's a meta-question that has an obvious answer, which is to study and gain experience in the subjects you want to become good at. The problem with that question is that its implication is that there's some special trick that will allow the questioner to shortcut the years of work and study that allowed expertise to be achieved.

throwaway22032 3y ago

I agree with the thrust of your post, but sometimes people simply can't give advice on certain matters because they don't face the same challenges that you do. I had a brilliant professor once, aware of the fact that he didn't really actually need to try, he was just incredibly gifted as a mathematician and for him undergrad was a walk in the park. He knew that he could teach us, but dealing with "the struggle" wasn't something he could empathise with. People often ask me how I had the motivation/discipline or drive to achieve certain long term goals and my honest answer is that they just didn't seem optional to me, like how one might brush their teeth without thinking. I couldn't give actionable advice to someone who, for example, "wants to get in shape" beyond what are essentially tautologies like just eat less and exercise more.

twelve40 3y ago
> I couldn't give actionable advice to someone who, for example, "wants to get in shape" beyond what are essentially tautologies like just eat less and exercise more but that doesn't even sound right. there are a million life hacks (real, good-natured ones like "start small", "make healthy things convenient" etc) you could share to help or to encourage someone facing that wall other than "just be like me" or "obey the laws of physics". If you cared enough about helping them, I guess.

antonvs 3y ago

> When I asked him how to "become as good as you are" This is an almost insulting question. What are you expecting, some magic trick? Go spend years studying, working hard, and focusing on improving yourself.

mdp2021 3y ago
Other people, in the group of those who make their own business to study success, swear that asking people how they became so good at what they do is a core recipe. (Good old Brian Tracy is the first that comes to mind: "never amounted to much until asked the right guy the right advice".) And you are posting precisely in a place where we share.
- antonvs 3y ago
  Never thought I'd see motivational speakers trotted out on HN as a source. What does Tony Robbins have to say on the subject?
  - mdp2021 3y ago
    > What does Tony Robbins have to say on the subject Substantially the same. You want to learn something, go ask those who can teach you something. Or, you can work on your own, build up competence without insights, and collect those insights all out of your experience in the span of decades. > as a source It's good sense, not authority.
    - antonvs 3y ago
      It's not good sense at all, it's completely irrelevant to this scenario. The kind of "success" those people are talking about is not becoming an expert at some technical discipline. Their main achievement is to convince susceptible people that they have something useful to say. The correct answer to this issue was given over 2,200 years ago, when King Ptolemy I is said to have asked Euclid if there was not a shorter road to geometry than through Euclid's Elements, to which Euclid replied that "there is no royal road to geometry." > You want to learn something, go ask those who can teach you something This is not about whether you accept instruction from experts. It was specifically a response to the question "how to become as good as you are." That's a meta-question that has an obvious answer, which is to study and gain experience in the subjects you want to become good at. The problem with that question is that its implication is that there's some special trick that will allow the questioner to shortcut the years of work and study that allowed expertise to be achieved.