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But our oil consumption essentially is our way of life. Changing it will have enormous effects on modern life. A lot of people are going to see a significant dr

But our oil consumption essentially is our way of life. Changing it will have enormous effects on modern life. A lot of people are going to see a significant drop in their quality of life as a result. This is why it's so hard to change things in the first place, it's not about the companies, but about average people.

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
That seems disingenuous when the climate catastrophe is going to have far greater effects on modern life. Too many people are clinging to the dream of continuing to dig out and burn as much oil as possible when it's clear that that behaviour is not sustainable. Although personal responsibility is never a bad thing, we need to focus on the big companies that have been deliberately hiding climate science for decades - they're the ones doing the lion's share of the polluting and suppressing alternatives.
- rhn_mk1 3y ago
  It's the clear tension of keeping our way of life now versus being able to keep parts of it in the future. Clearly, some people care about the now more than the future.
- klipt 3y ago
  The solution is a carbon tax, which is unpopular with big oil companies but probably also unpopular with many citizens who vote based on gas prices. We may just have to use solar radiation management instead.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    That's not a solution.
  - phs318u 3y ago
    > solar radiation management Hahahaha. I can see it now: "Exxon Stratospheric Sulfur Shield - using dirty fuels in long-haul flights to create a particulate-based solar shield [0]. Partnering with governments around the globe [1] to protect the earth and boost tourism. Because we care." [0] https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/stratospheric-aerosols.html https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/stratospheric-aer... [1] https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trillion-in-subsidies-in-2020-report-finds https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trill...
  - Aerroon 3y ago
    Many European countries already have something like that: excise taxes on gasoline. Gasoline in Europe is almost twice the price of gas in the US, even in countries where people earn half of what Americans do. It's not particularly new either - they've been around for decades now. This teaches us a valuable lesson though - money from carbon taxes must not go into the government budget. It should instead be distributed to something automatically (eg equal payments to everyone or the poorest). If it becomes part of the budget then governments might try to maximize revenue rather than deal with the problem.
- Aerroon 3y ago
  People don't dream about burning more oil, they dream about the quality of life that this process affords us. Things like uninterrupted power, (uninterrupted) running water, cleaner water, the internet, cheap food, enough food (fertilizers/Haber-Bosch process), accessible transportation, economies of scale etc. While few of these things require fossil fuels, fossil fuels are nevertheless the reason why these things are abundant and accessible. People dream about living a good life. Our fossil fuel consumption has afforded this to many. That is why it's difficult to change. Companies don't make stuff for fun, they do it because there's consumer demand for it.
  - eimrine 3y ago
    This is the best anti-green argumentation I have ever seen. This is what a drop of water thinks about, which never considers itself a part of tsunami.
    - Aerroon 3y ago
      I hope it isn't only seen as anti-green. A big worry I have concerning climate change is that often I see discussions about climate policy ignore why our consumption is so high. It's not really the billionaires or greedy corporations. It's us. We're the ones consuming the bulk of these resources. And these policies will affect the poorest the most. On the other hand, I also worry about the impact of climate change. I think as long as things remain within current predictions we will be able to manage, but what if they don't? What if some process ends up accelerating things faster than expected?
      - ant6n 3y ago
        Sustainable policies likely affect the poorest the least. Climate change will affect them the most. The poorest already make a lot of sustainable choices: living in apartments in cities, taking public transportation, consuming less. It’s possible that if carbon was heavily taxed, and some of the proceeds returned to everybody, that the poorest would actually be better off. Never mind the whole stopping the climate catastrophe threat.
- goatlover 3y ago
  80% of our current energy still comes from fossil fuels. The world runs on it. There isn't a simple solution that's economically and politically viable. It takes time to change that without drastically altering people's lifestyles. We saw how untenable that was in the longterm during Covid lockdowns.
anothernewdude 3y ago
I'm happy with remote working.
- candiodari 3y ago
  Energy is why we burn fossil fuels. Energy is an input to everything. So this is about less consumption, or to put it another way: a drop in income. Let's say 10% less income for you, without you getting any compensation for it in any way. Other than reduced global climate impact. Of course, you'd have to actually destroy that 10%, if you leave it on a bank account the bank would lend it, or the government would use it, which would prevent this from having an impact.
  - anothernewdude 3y ago
    Inflation has done that already.
    - candiodari 3y ago
      That doesn't count. That's just a way to redirect money towards loan repayment. For it to work you'd have to use it to pay people to do nothing that otherwise would have done a job. You'll need to destroy economic value without destroying natural resources.
geraneum 3y ago
I doubt the same people who won’t accept a decline in quality of life by reduced oil consumption will be thrilled with the consequences of the alternative.
- candiodari 3y ago
  You mean what's predicted to come tomorrow, and has little to no effect today? Anti-carbon policies however, will have immediate effects felt today, for benefits tomorrow ...
  - geraneum 3y ago
    This is our natural tendency, to seek the quick rewards but we are intelligent beings, capable of planning. The same arguments can be made for future of your own children, retirement plans, planting trees, long term investments, etc. Yet these are not as controversial and we accept them, more or less, as generally good practices. This natural instinct on its own is not enough to make people forget the coming danger. You need constant advertisement, news cycles, opinion pieces, disinformation campaigns, etc. to make it stick.
r00fus 3y ago
This is quite accurate in fact: to use a Dune analogy: oil is the spice. It must flow, or the empire is diminished and might fall apart. There is an alternative however, and countries like China are pursuing it. Want to look at what life would be like with less petroleum usage per capita? Look to Asia. I'm not some tankie, but I also don't have blinders on.

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago

That seems disingenuous when the climate catastrophe is going to have far greater effects on modern life. Too many people are clinging to the dream of continuing to dig out and burn as much oil as possible when it's clear that that behaviour is not sustainable. Although personal responsibility is never a bad thing, we need to focus on the big companies that have been deliberately hiding climate science for decades - they're the ones doing the lion's share of the polluting and suppressing alternatives.

rhn_mk1 3y ago
It's the clear tension of keeping our way of life now versus being able to keep parts of it in the future. Clearly, some people care about the now more than the future.
klipt 3y ago
The solution is a carbon tax, which is unpopular with big oil companies but probably also unpopular with many citizens who vote based on gas prices. We may just have to use solar radiation management instead.
- myshpa 3y ago
  That's not a solution.
- phs318u 3y ago
  > solar radiation management Hahahaha. I can see it now: "Exxon Stratospheric Sulfur Shield - using dirty fuels in long-haul flights to create a particulate-based solar shield [0]. Partnering with governments around the globe [1] to protect the earth and boost tourism. Because we care." [0] https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/stratospheric-aerosols.html https://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/stratospheric-aer... [1] https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trillion-in-subsidies-in-2020-report-finds https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trill...
- Aerroon 3y ago
  Many European countries already have something like that: excise taxes on gasoline. Gasoline in Europe is almost twice the price of gas in the US, even in countries where people earn half of what Americans do. It's not particularly new either - they've been around for decades now. This teaches us a valuable lesson though - money from carbon taxes must not go into the government budget. It should instead be distributed to something automatically (eg equal payments to everyone or the poorest). If it becomes part of the budget then governments might try to maximize revenue rather than deal with the problem.
Aerroon 3y ago
People don't dream about burning more oil, they dream about the quality of life that this process affords us. Things like uninterrupted power, (uninterrupted) running water, cleaner water, the internet, cheap food, enough food (fertilizers/Haber-Bosch process), accessible transportation, economies of scale etc. While few of these things require fossil fuels, fossil fuels are nevertheless the reason why these things are abundant and accessible. People dream about living a good life. Our fossil fuel consumption has afforded this to many. That is why it's difficult to change. Companies don't make stuff for fun, they do it because there's consumer demand for it.
- eimrine 3y ago
  This is the best anti-green argumentation I have ever seen. This is what a drop of water thinks about, which never considers itself a part of tsunami.
  - Aerroon 3y ago
    I hope it isn't only seen as anti-green. A big worry I have concerning climate change is that often I see discussions about climate policy ignore why our consumption is so high. It's not really the billionaires or greedy corporations. It's us. We're the ones consuming the bulk of these resources. And these policies will affect the poorest the most. On the other hand, I also worry about the impact of climate change. I think as long as things remain within current predictions we will be able to manage, but what if they don't? What if some process ends up accelerating things faster than expected?
    - ant6n 3y ago
      Sustainable policies likely affect the poorest the least. Climate change will affect them the most. The poorest already make a lot of sustainable choices: living in apartments in cities, taking public transportation, consuming less. It’s possible that if carbon was heavily taxed, and some of the proceeds returned to everybody, that the poorest would actually be better off. Never mind the whole stopping the climate catastrophe threat.
goatlover 3y ago
80% of our current energy still comes from fossil fuels. The world runs on it. There isn't a simple solution that's economically and politically viable. It takes time to change that without drastically altering people's lifestyles. We saw how untenable that was in the longterm during Covid lockdowns.

anothernewdude 3y ago

I'm happy with remote working.

candiodari 3y ago
Energy is why we burn fossil fuels. Energy is an input to everything. So this is about less consumption, or to put it another way: a drop in income. Let's say 10% less income for you, without you getting any compensation for it in any way. Other than reduced global climate impact. Of course, you'd have to actually destroy that 10%, if you leave it on a bank account the bank would lend it, or the government would use it, which would prevent this from having an impact.
- anothernewdude 3y ago
  Inflation has done that already.
  - candiodari 3y ago
    That doesn't count. That's just a way to redirect money towards loan repayment. For it to work you'd have to use it to pay people to do nothing that otherwise would have done a job. You'll need to destroy economic value without destroying natural resources.

geraneum 3y ago

I doubt the same people who won’t accept a decline in quality of life by reduced oil consumption will be thrilled with the consequences of the alternative.

candiodari 3y ago
You mean what's predicted to come tomorrow, and has little to no effect today? Anti-carbon policies however, will have immediate effects felt today, for benefits tomorrow ...
- geraneum 3y ago
  This is our natural tendency, to seek the quick rewards but we are intelligent beings, capable of planning. The same arguments can be made for future of your own children, retirement plans, planting trees, long term investments, etc. Yet these are not as controversial and we accept them, more or less, as generally good practices. This natural instinct on its own is not enough to make people forget the coming danger. You need constant advertisement, news cycles, opinion pieces, disinformation campaigns, etc. to make it stick.

r00fus 3y ago

This is quite accurate in fact: to use a Dune analogy: oil is the spice. It must flow, or the empire is diminished and might fall apart. There is an alternative however, and countries like China are pursuing it. Want to look at what life would be like with less petroleum usage per capita? Look to Asia. I'm not some tankie, but I also don't have blinders on.