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Peeeew. Dude. > The richest people and biggest corporations own such an unimaginably large amount of wealth that taxing them would fix just about anything. S

by csomar 3y ago

Peeeew. Dude. > The richest people and biggest corporations own such an unimaginably large amount of wealth that taxing them would fix just about anything. Still peanuts comparing to the "global" economy or a country needs (in terms of pension or health). Also a significant portion of this wealth is paper money that will take a significant hit at sale. > In 2017, Apple's cash reserves were $250 billion. That's just a single company, hoarding reserves that could clear the national debt of most countries. Think about that for a second. Why not then, dip into your bank account? By this logic, there are trillion of $$ in bank accounts all around the world. That's a lot of money. > There is absolutely no shortage of wealth in the world. There is easily enough to pay all the pensions, including far into the future, even considering demographic change. > But of course, if governments are OK with allowing corporations to act like sovereign countries, raising the retirement age can seem like a reasonable alternative to moving all that wealth to where it actually belongs. Sure, let's make every 20-30-40 something work for these 60+ all day instead of having a life. The reality is that the pension system of France was pretty good when it started because there were very few pensioners. Now that the situation is not the same, it means each pensioner will get a little less. And the system is already maxed out to maximum max. Many people are deserting France because of the high taxes and high pension system contributions.

southerntofu 3y ago
> Sure, let's make every 20-30-40 something work for these 60+ all day instead of having a life. Most of the value produced by workers goes into the pockets of corporate overlords. For their bosses and managers, for the shareholders, and for the landlords of the corporate mafia who take in 30-70% of working people's income. By your own logic, abolish corporate profits and for-profit housing, and let every worker enjoy huge benefits and retirement. > Now that the situation is not the same, it means each pensioner will get a little less. This is not wrong. But it's entirely due to Macron reforming the pension system with a "point" system. Without such reform, pensioners would continue to get just as much money, adjusted for inflation.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  > By your own logic, abolish corporate profits and for-profit housing, and let every worker enjoy huge benefits and retirement. Corporations are owned by pension funds. Investment funds own 80% of the S&P 500. They would be insolvent if corporations stopped posting profits. But also, the reason corporations make so much money is regulatory capture. They buy laws that foreclose competition which makes everything cost more. It's the same reason housing is so expensive (the anti-competition laws there are zoning rules). You can't fix this with taxes -- tax them and everything still costs too much. Meanwhile the government is not going to give the money to you, they give it to the politically connected or use it to buy votes from interest groups with inefficient programs. You have to actually fix the laws that enable this -- as in repeal them, not add some more to the pile.
  - newsclues 3y ago
    Let's breakdown the "tax the rich argument" Government has become captured by wealthy interests and has created a legal system that benefits the rich at the expense of the working class. If the power of the government can be seized, the wealth of the rich can be taken and used to help the working class. Problems with this: A) this essentially is a revolution to seize control of the government to take the wealth from the powerful and wealthy. B) there is a high risk that the attempt to seize control of the government will fail, but the wealth transfer will still occur, just from the middle class to the government/wealthy. C) it's unsustainable.
    - thumbuddy 3y ago
      When most people say tax the wealthy they are actually literally saying, tax them on what they make. The middle class pays pretty much all the taxes in the US while the world's wealthiest tend to pay as much as someone who is upper middle class. Some people are now proposing a wealth tax on anyone with more than a billion dollars. That's surprisingly reasonable. It is also completely sustainable, and does not require overthrowing any government ...
      - 3y ago
yafbum 3y ago
> Why not then, dip into your bank account? By this logic, there are trillion of $$ in bank accounts all around the world. That's a lot of money. Because wealth is immensely concentrated. There isn't nearly as much money in everyday individual bank accounts as in those of ultrawealthy individuals and corporates; and the trend since the 80s is for this to accelerate.
cycomanic 3y ago
Way to attack a straw man. >> The richest people and biggest corporations own such an unimaginably large amount of wealth that taxing them would fix just about anything. > Still peanuts comparing to the "global" economy or a country needs (in terms of pension or health). Also a significant portion of this wealth is paper money that will take a significant hit at sale. > In 2017, Apple's cash reserves were $250 billion. That's just a single company, hoarding reserves that could clear the national debt of most countries. Think about that for a second. > Why not then, dip into your bank account? By this logic, there are trillion of $$ in bank accounts all around the world. That's a lot of money. Well they mentioned Apple's cash reserves that's traditionally easily accessible funds that do not take a significant hit at sale (although the number I read is $55 Billion), but if we talking about Apple's cash and cash equivalents, that was $20,535. That money would fix quite a few economies (and pension funds). I'm not sure why you bring up peoples bank accounts. They were specifically talking about the worlds richest people and companies, you're average Joe doesn't count. The whole argument is that many economies are in this mess because the super-rich companies and individuals have not been paying their fair share of taxes (as sufficiently document by e.g. the Panama papers etc.).
dTal 3y ago
>Why not then, dip into your bank account? By this logic, there are trillion of $$ in bank accounts all around the world. That's a lot of money. My bank account is dipped into. It's called "tax". I pay it at a considerably higher rate than Apple does. Does that seem fair?
- landemva 3y ago
  > Does that seem fair? No, though it is not about fairness. Your slave owner takes part of the fruits of your labor. Why do you allow that?
  - dTal 3y ago
    It is entirely about fairness. We live in a society. Tax is necessary to maintain that society. Everyone needs to pitch in. If you want "rights", that comes with "responsibilities" - they invariably pair.
    - landemva 3y ago
      Responsibilty to maintain road and sewer, for example, are funded by use tax and sales tax. Those who use it are paying to maintain it. Income tax pays for ... ridiculous things like endless wars and spying on American income tax payers.
      - didibus 3y ago
        > Income tax pays for ... ridiculous things like endless wars and spying on American income tax payers 12% of federal budget went to national defense. Most of it went towards Health Insurance, Social Security, and Welfare programs.
        landemva 3y ago
        Federal budget includes deficit spending. Did trustfundians pay income tax? How does the son of George Soros, who does not need income, pay income tax? The children of ultra rich are not tax slaves. They escaped.
codedokode 3y ago
> Why not then, dip into your bank account? The government does it every time when it prints money. Note that with cryptocurrency or golden money that would become impossible. Maybe that is why government set up obstacles for buying gold or cryptocurrency.

by csomar 3y ago

southerntofu 3y ago

> Sure, let's make every 20-30-40 something work for these 60+ all day instead of having a life. Most of the value produced by workers goes into the pockets of corporate overlords. For their bosses and managers, for the shareholders, and for the landlords of the corporate mafia who take in 30-70% of working people's income. By your own logic, abolish corporate profits and for-profit housing, and let every worker enjoy huge benefits and retirement. > Now that the situation is not the same, it means each pensioner will get a little less. This is not wrong. But it's entirely due to Macron reforming the pension system with a "point" system. Without such reform, pensioners would continue to get just as much money, adjusted for inflation.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> By your own logic, abolish corporate profits and for-profit housing, and let every worker enjoy huge benefits and retirement. Corporations are owned by pension funds. Investment funds own 80% of the S&P 500. They would be insolvent if corporations stopped posting profits. But also, the reason corporations make so much money is regulatory capture. They buy laws that foreclose competition which makes everything cost more. It's the same reason housing is so expensive (the anti-competition laws there are zoning rules). You can't fix this with taxes -- tax them and everything still costs too much. Meanwhile the government is not going to give the money to you, they give it to the politically connected or use it to buy votes from interest groups with inefficient programs. You have to actually fix the laws that enable this -- as in repeal them, not add some more to the pile.
- newsclues 3y ago
  Let's breakdown the "tax the rich argument" Government has become captured by wealthy interests and has created a legal system that benefits the rich at the expense of the working class. If the power of the government can be seized, the wealth of the rich can be taken and used to help the working class. Problems with this: A) this essentially is a revolution to seize control of the government to take the wealth from the powerful and wealthy. B) there is a high risk that the attempt to seize control of the government will fail, but the wealth transfer will still occur, just from the middle class to the government/wealthy. C) it's unsustainable.
  - thumbuddy 3y ago
    When most people say tax the wealthy they are actually literally saying, tax them on what they make. The middle class pays pretty much all the taxes in the US while the world's wealthiest tend to pay as much as someone who is upper middle class. Some people are now proposing a wealth tax on anyone with more than a billion dollars. That's surprisingly reasonable. It is also completely sustainable, and does not require overthrowing any government ...
    - 3y ago

yafbum 3y ago

> Why not then, dip into your bank account? By this logic, there are trillion of $$ in bank accounts all around the world. That's a lot of money. Because wealth is immensely concentrated. There isn't nearly as much money in everyday individual bank accounts as in those of ultrawealthy individuals and corporates; and the trend since the 80s is for this to accelerate.

cycomanic 3y ago

Way to attack a straw man. >> The richest people and biggest corporations own such an unimaginably large amount of wealth that taxing them would fix just about anything. > Still peanuts comparing to the "global" economy or a country needs (in terms of pension or health). Also a significant portion of this wealth is paper money that will take a significant hit at sale. > In 2017, Apple's cash reserves were $250 billion. That's just a single company, hoarding reserves that could clear the national debt of most countries. Think about that for a second. > Why not then, dip into your bank account? By this logic, there are trillion of $$ in bank accounts all around the world. That's a lot of money. Well they mentioned Apple's cash reserves that's traditionally easily accessible funds that do not take a significant hit at sale (although the number I read is $55 Billion), but if we talking about Apple's cash and cash equivalents, that was $20,535. That money would fix quite a few economies (and pension funds). I'm not sure why you bring up peoples bank accounts. They were specifically talking about the worlds richest people and companies, you're average Joe doesn't count. The whole argument is that many economies are in this mess because the super-rich companies and individuals have not been paying their fair share of taxes (as sufficiently document by e.g. the Panama papers etc.).

dTal 3y ago

>Why not then, dip into your bank account? By this logic, there are trillion of $$ in bank accounts all around the world. That's a lot of money. My bank account is dipped into. It's called "tax". I pay it at a considerably higher rate than Apple does. Does that seem fair?

landemva 3y ago
> Does that seem fair? No, though it is not about fairness. Your slave owner takes part of the fruits of your labor. Why do you allow that?
- dTal 3y ago
  It is entirely about fairness. We live in a society. Tax is necessary to maintain that society. Everyone needs to pitch in. If you want "rights", that comes with "responsibilities" - they invariably pair.
  - landemva 3y ago
    Responsibilty to maintain road and sewer, for example, are funded by use tax and sales tax. Those who use it are paying to maintain it. Income tax pays for ... ridiculous things like endless wars and spying on American income tax payers.
    - didibus 3y ago
      > Income tax pays for ... ridiculous things like endless wars and spying on American income tax payers 12% of federal budget went to national defense. Most of it went towards Health Insurance, Social Security, and Welfare programs.
      - landemva 3y ago
        Federal budget includes deficit spending. Did trustfundians pay income tax? How does the son of George Soros, who does not need income, pay income tax? The children of ultra rich are not tax slaves. They escaped.

codedokode 3y ago

> Why not then, dip into your bank account? The government does it every time when it prints money. Note that with cryptocurrency or golden money that would become impossible. Maybe that is why government set up obstacles for buying gold or cryptocurrency.