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I think the author's main point is insightful. Professional ethics are much more effective when they have the weight of regulation, because then your employer c

I think the author's main point is insightful. Professional ethics are much more effective when they have the weight of regulation, because then your employer can't just replace you with someone who will do the unethical thing that they want. In my opinion, it is probably still worth refusing to build things that violate your personal ethics. You will sleep better at night, and you will introduce friction to doing unethical things, which may cause your employer to re-evaluate their course of action. Or they might fire you. Also, I struggle to imagine what a world of regulated software engineers (with an enforceable set of professional ethics) would look like. To use the author's example, giving surgeons a monopoly on surgery is pretty simple: if you cut people up with a scalpel, even with their permission, and you're not certified by your country's board of surgery, then you're committing a crime. What would a world of regulated software engineering look like? Are all employees of a company who are not licensed software engineers now prohibited from using code to solve their problems? Is a business analyst writing SQL allowed? What if they start writing stored procedures in python? Are you allowed to use CLI tools? What about creating bash scripts to automate your CLI workflow? It works in specific, highly regulated industries (e.g. "only licensed software engineers may contribute to avionics firmware, or the device will not be FAA certifiable"). But for general-purpose business-grade software... I don't think it is possible to come up with a sensible and useful rule that could draw a line between programmers and everyone else. So my bet is that we continue unregulated.

Wowfunhappy 3y ago
> Also, I struggle to imagine what a world of regulated software engineers (with an enforceable set of professional ethics) would look like. To use the author's example, giving surgeons a monopoly on surgery is pretty simple: if you cut people up with a scalpel, even with their permission, and you're not certified by your country's board of surgery, then you're committing a crime. What would a world of regulated software engineering look like? Here's what I imagine it would look like. I don't particularly like it. All powerful computers operate like iPhones. Normal people are prohibited from executing code outside of a limited sandbox. Licensed software developers have the ability to execute code. It's already starting to happen, except the "license" is a developer account with individual platform vendors.
- titanomachy 3y ago
  Makes me think of this Stallman short story[0]: "debugger vendors in 2047 distributed numbered copies only, and only to officially licensed and bonded programmers" I don't think it would happen, because it's too difficult of a global coordination problem. E.g. if you make it too hard to build software in the US, then it will just get built elsewhere, and the US will no longer be dominant or even important in tech. [0]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
version_five 3y ago
In engineering (electrical, mechanical, civil) we have professional licensure[0]. It doesn't mean you can't design an electric system without a license. It means you can't represent yourself as an engineer, nor can you stamp engineering drawings. There are some legal situations, particularly building / structural where stamped drawings are needed, and so only a P.Eng can do that. But if it's say designing a circuit board, or a machined part, there is no generic regulation, and anyone can do it. There is already "software engineering" as a regulated discipline, and similar rules apply there. I have no idea if there are any situations where you need a stamped software deliverable. But they would have an engineers stamp. I have one (as an electrical engineer) that I haven't used and don't expect to. All that to say, what matters is the combination of professional licensing and the requirement for a licensed professional. In engineering (applied science), it's actually pretty rare, even though it's a regulated profession. [0] I'm in Canada, I think the US system is similar
- titanomachy 3y ago
  I'm aware that "software engineer" as a regulated profession exists in Canada. The only consequence that I'm aware of is that tech companies in Canada call their engineers "software developers" instead. In years of working in tech I've never had a coworker who was a licensed Software Engineer. All I'm saying is that it's unlikely that the bulk of activity we currently think of as "software engineering" will someday full under a level of professional regulation comparable to surgeons, pilots, or civil engineers.
  - version_five 3y ago
    Yes I agree, and to a large extent (from what I know) creating that designation was marketing from universities. To be a licensed engineer in Canada you need the degree and then 4 years' experience working under licensed P.Eng which in software is basically impossible. So most people would have the degree but never apply for licensure.
- sys_64738 3y ago
  I'm not sure what the regulated discipline of SW engineering is. For sure, writing software out with this is not real engineering and shouldn't be called such. I would never call myself a SW engineer as I'm not a real engineer.
biomcgary 3y ago
First, they came for C compilers and you said nothing. Then, they came for Python interpreters and you said nothing. Now that they are coming for Excel, who will defend you?
- titanomachy 3y ago
  Whoa, is that a boolean "AND" in your search query?? I'm going to need to see your license.
- version_five 3y ago
  You're making a joke, but when you look at what's happening with software licenses (mostly in AI) that restrict uses to those that the releasing companies deem appropriate (such as nonsensically no use in the nuclear industry) it's only a matter of time until political completely creeps into the software supply chain and all your python packages will have their own specific political list of what you can and can't do with them. Minimizing dependencies is going to become increasingly important.
- kazinator 3y ago
  > Now that they are coming for Excel, who will defend you? A rectangular fortress formed between by two protected columns and two protected rows.
m463 3y ago
Yes, I can see AI driving software, flight software, medical electronics and more benefiting everyone involved.
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Wowfunhappy 3y ago

> Also, I struggle to imagine what a world of regulated software engineers (with an enforceable set of professional ethics) would look like. To use the author's example, giving surgeons a monopoly on surgery is pretty simple: if you cut people up with a scalpel, even with their permission, and you're not certified by your country's board of surgery, then you're committing a crime. What would a world of regulated software engineering look like? Here's what I imagine it would look like. I don't particularly like it. All powerful computers operate like iPhones. Normal people are prohibited from executing code outside of a limited sandbox. Licensed software developers have the ability to execute code. It's already starting to happen, except the "license" is a developer account with individual platform vendors.

titanomachy 3y ago
Makes me think of this Stallman short story[0]: "debugger vendors in 2047 distributed numbered copies only, and only to officially licensed and bonded programmers" I don't think it would happen, because it's too difficult of a global coordination problem. E.g. if you make it too hard to build software in the US, then it will just get built elsewhere, and the US will no longer be dominant or even important in tech. [0]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html

version_five 3y ago

In engineering (electrical, mechanical, civil) we have professional licensure[0]. It doesn't mean you can't design an electric system without a license. It means you can't represent yourself as an engineer, nor can you stamp engineering drawings. There are some legal situations, particularly building / structural where stamped drawings are needed, and so only a P.Eng can do that. But if it's say designing a circuit board, or a machined part, there is no generic regulation, and anyone can do it. There is already "software engineering" as a regulated discipline, and similar rules apply there. I have no idea if there are any situations where you need a stamped software deliverable. But they would have an engineers stamp. I have one (as an electrical engineer) that I haven't used and don't expect to. All that to say, what matters is the combination of professional licensing and the requirement for a licensed professional. In engineering (applied science), it's actually pretty rare, even though it's a regulated profession. [0] I'm in Canada, I think the US system is similar

titanomachy 3y ago
I'm aware that "software engineer" as a regulated profession exists in Canada. The only consequence that I'm aware of is that tech companies in Canada call their engineers "software developers" instead. In years of working in tech I've never had a coworker who was a licensed Software Engineer. All I'm saying is that it's unlikely that the bulk of activity we currently think of as "software engineering" will someday full under a level of professional regulation comparable to surgeons, pilots, or civil engineers.
- version_five 3y ago
  Yes I agree, and to a large extent (from what I know) creating that designation was marketing from universities. To be a licensed engineer in Canada you need the degree and then 4 years' experience working under licensed P.Eng which in software is basically impossible. So most people would have the degree but never apply for licensure.
sys_64738 3y ago
I'm not sure what the regulated discipline of SW engineering is. For sure, writing software out with this is not real engineering and shouldn't be called such. I would never call myself a SW engineer as I'm not a real engineer.

biomcgary 3y ago

First, they came for C compilers and you said nothing. Then, they came for Python interpreters and you said nothing. Now that they are coming for Excel, who will defend you?

titanomachy 3y ago
Whoa, is that a boolean "AND" in your search query?? I'm going to need to see your license.
version_five 3y ago
You're making a joke, but when you look at what's happening with software licenses (mostly in AI) that restrict uses to those that the releasing companies deem appropriate (such as nonsensically no use in the nuclear industry) it's only a matter of time until political completely creeps into the software supply chain and all your python packages will have their own specific political list of what you can and can't do with them. Minimizing dependencies is going to become increasingly important.
kazinator 3y ago
> Now that they are coming for Excel, who will defend you? A rectangular fortress formed between by two protected columns and two protected rows.

m463 3y ago

Yes, I can see AI driving software, flight software, medical electronics and more benefiting everyone involved.

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