4 ms·

> the lacking of significant strategic elements Planning for your gear and doing sims / optimizing are strategic elements, though potentially a meta-strategy?

WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
That was a thing in Diablo 2 and that's when the IP peaked, this got lost with Diablo 3 and, i believe even more so with Diablo 4.. all the builds are all discovered and in front of you, there is no tinkering with incredible skill interaction possible like we used to do in Diablo 2 It's kinda similar to how Bethesda manages the Elder Scrolls IP, ~ a decade between titles and they casualize(? is it a word)/simplify mechanics that made them popular, they became a shadow of themselves, as a result their titles, while successful, doesn't give the same satisfaction, and I don't think it's due to nostalgia, there are specific design decisions that emphasis with my point, lvl-scaling and simplified damage/defense stats in D4 for example The story and world building are both nailed, hence the commercial success, but the gameplay... what a let down.. exactly like Oblivion -> Skyrim transition I don't think the game would have been a success if "Diablo" wasn't attached to the name, I'm pretty sure it sold less than Diablo 3 Hopefully they evolve the genre/IP with Diablo 5, perhaps focus as a single player game and explore new gameplay mechanics This "game as a service" ruins this IP Hopefully Bethesda don't fall into the same trap and actually move the IP forward, similar to how Fromsoftware evolved their Souls like genre Dark Souls -> Elden Ring, that's what I expect from both Blizzard / Bethesda, they both play too safe and ends up becoming the shadow of their past..
- nullindividual 3y ago
  > casualize(? is it a word)/simplify mechanics 'streamline the fun out of'
  - WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
    Yeah that sounds like a better word, thanks
- jnovek 3y ago
  > all the builds are all discovered Isn't that more a feature of the community than the game itself, though? You're always free to experiment and roll your own builds. That's what I'm doing with Diablo 4 and I'm having a blast. I don't care if I push the highest nightmare dungeon or even reach max level. I just want to see what I can do with a build that I come up with out of my own head.
  - WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
    I think that's more of a side effect of them wanting it to be a "game as a service", they need everything to be streamlined and balanced.. wich removes a lot of the fun.. I wish they'd have made D4 a proper single player game instead of an MMO, and let your community mod your game Look at D2 and the sheer amount of mods.. same for Warcraft 3..
    - foobazgt 3y ago
      I can see glimpses of what they were going for with online multiplayer in D4. There's some fun there, but I think it's currently a net negative. It forces them to balance tightly, but I don't need D4 to be perfectly balanced - just fun. Some of the best games I've ever played have had horribly broken balance - final fantasy 6 (3) and final fantasy tactics just to name two off the top of my head.
      - tstrimple 3y ago
        World events with online players have the potential to be much better. I'm hopeful it'll evolve over time. That being said, D4 is not even close to being balanced perfectly. There are orders of magnitude of power level in difference between classes and builds. At least if you measure them against "end game content" and not the campaign which can be completed with any class / skill selection.
        foobazgt 3y ago
        Right, it's not currently balanced well, and the massive amount of nerfing in the last patch was to work to address that. Thankfully, it looks like they realized the patch was bad. They just announced in their fireside chat that they were wrong to prioritize balancing over fun, and they're working to fix it.
- lgeorget 3y ago
  > It's kinda similar to how Bethesda manages the Elder Scrolls IP, ~ a decade between titles and they casualize(? is it a word)/simplify mechanics that made them popular, they became a shadow of themselves I felt that as well when I played Skyrim after Morrowind. The fact that you cannot sell or drop quest items (even quests you've not received yet), you cannot meet NPCs you've not been talked about, unkillable NPCs, the marker in the UI that tell you where to go... For sure, it's "convenient" and it alleviates a lot of frustration but it also makes the world feel less real.
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  I don't understand how people can praise the game design of Dark Souls and then say that Elden Ring is better. Elden Ring is the trashy mass appeal cousin. * Most major bosses are gimmicky * The open world encourages running past everything across pretty but boring fields and eschewing interesting level design * The platforming is goofy and bad and relies heavily on awkwardly not dying as you fall vague heights * There's a huge amount of tedious content. And you're highly likely to encounter enemies that are genuinely too strong for your character that just kind of shits on you for exploring the wrong way; or likewise content that you arrive at and are disappointed to find it's pointlessly easy. The game was still good but it would have been much better if they cut out 3/4 of the mini dungeons, chopped the map area in half, and put more love and effort into the legacy dungeons.
butlike 3y ago
I employee you to try a "no-town" run. It works in Diablo I and II. Essentially once you spawn in, you have to leave and never return which opens up interesting gameplay. Waypoints? They're essentially useless. You can't return to town and why would you warp back to a cleared area? Why go to the Den of Evil? You can't get the skill point from Akara anyways... Town portals become useless, however, identify scrolls become one of the most valuable item. Do you hold onto the unid'd gloves that take up 4 inventory spots or drop it? Do you equip the javelin that has 4 durability, or do you save it for the boss? Do you remember where your cache of health pots were? It's really hard and really fun. If you've tapped the Diablo reservoir and looking for something new, I'd try it

WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago

That was a thing in Diablo 2 and that's when the IP peaked, this got lost with Diablo 3 and, i believe even more so with Diablo 4.. all the builds are all discovered and in front of you, there is no tinkering with incredible skill interaction possible like we used to do in Diablo 2 It's kinda similar to how Bethesda manages the Elder Scrolls IP, ~ a decade between titles and they casualize(? is it a word)/simplify mechanics that made them popular, they became a shadow of themselves, as a result their titles, while successful, doesn't give the same satisfaction, and I don't think it's due to nostalgia, there are specific design decisions that emphasis with my point, lvl-scaling and simplified damage/defense stats in D4 for example The story and world building are both nailed, hence the commercial success, but the gameplay... what a let down.. exactly like Oblivion -> Skyrim transition I don't think the game would have been a success if "Diablo" wasn't attached to the name, I'm pretty sure it sold less than Diablo 3 Hopefully they evolve the genre/IP with Diablo 5, perhaps focus as a single player game and explore new gameplay mechanics This "game as a service" ruins this IP Hopefully Bethesda don't fall into the same trap and actually move the IP forward, similar to how Fromsoftware evolved their Souls like genre Dark Souls -> Elden Ring, that's what I expect from both Blizzard / Bethesda, they both play too safe and ends up becoming the shadow of their past..

nullindividual 3y ago
> casualize(? is it a word)/simplify mechanics 'streamline the fun out of'
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
  Yeah that sounds like a better word, thanks
jnovek 3y ago
> all the builds are all discovered Isn't that more a feature of the community than the game itself, though? You're always free to experiment and roll your own builds. That's what I'm doing with Diablo 4 and I'm having a blast. I don't care if I push the highest nightmare dungeon or even reach max level. I just want to see what I can do with a build that I come up with out of my own head.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago
  I think that's more of a side effect of them wanting it to be a "game as a service", they need everything to be streamlined and balanced.. wich removes a lot of the fun.. I wish they'd have made D4 a proper single player game instead of an MMO, and let your community mod your game Look at D2 and the sheer amount of mods.. same for Warcraft 3..
  - foobazgt 3y ago
    I can see glimpses of what they were going for with online multiplayer in D4. There's some fun there, but I think it's currently a net negative. It forces them to balance tightly, but I don't need D4 to be perfectly balanced - just fun. Some of the best games I've ever played have had horribly broken balance - final fantasy 6 (3) and final fantasy tactics just to name two off the top of my head.
    - tstrimple 3y ago
      World events with online players have the potential to be much better. I'm hopeful it'll evolve over time. That being said, D4 is not even close to being balanced perfectly. There are orders of magnitude of power level in difference between classes and builds. At least if you measure them against "end game content" and not the campaign which can be completed with any class / skill selection.
      - foobazgt 3y ago
        Right, it's not currently balanced well, and the massive amount of nerfing in the last patch was to work to address that. Thankfully, it looks like they realized the patch was bad. They just announced in their fireside chat that they were wrong to prioritize balancing over fun, and they're working to fix it.
lgeorget 3y ago
> It's kinda similar to how Bethesda manages the Elder Scrolls IP, ~ a decade between titles and they casualize(? is it a word)/simplify mechanics that made them popular, they became a shadow of themselves I felt that as well when I played Skyrim after Morrowind. The fact that you cannot sell or drop quest items (even quests you've not received yet), you cannot meet NPCs you've not been talked about, unkillable NPCs, the marker in the UI that tell you where to go... For sure, it's "convenient" and it alleviates a lot of frustration but it also makes the world feel less real.
spywaregorilla 3y ago
I don't understand how people can praise the game design of Dark Souls and then say that Elden Ring is better. Elden Ring is the trashy mass appeal cousin. * Most major bosses are gimmicky * The open world encourages running past everything across pretty but boring fields and eschewing interesting level design * The platforming is goofy and bad and relies heavily on awkwardly not dying as you fall vague heights * There's a huge amount of tedious content. And you're highly likely to encounter enemies that are genuinely too strong for your character that just kind of shits on you for exploring the wrong way; or likewise content that you arrive at and are disappointed to find it's pointlessly easy. The game was still good but it would have been much better if they cut out 3/4 of the mini dungeons, chopped the map area in half, and put more love and effort into the legacy dungeons.

butlike 3y ago

I employee you to try a "no-town" run. It works in Diablo I and II. Essentially once you spawn in, you have to leave and never return which opens up interesting gameplay. Waypoints? They're essentially useless. You can't return to town and why would you warp back to a cleared area? Why go to the Den of Evil? You can't get the skill point from Akara anyways... Town portals become useless, however, identify scrolls become one of the most valuable item. Do you hold onto the unid'd gloves that take up 4 inventory spots or drop it? Do you equip the javelin that has 4 durability, or do you save it for the boss? Do you remember where your cache of health pots were? It's really hard and really fun. If you've tapped the Diablo reservoir and looking for something new, I'd try it