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I always wondered what the queueing situation is at chargers since most locations aren't physically set up for it. You'd be really annoyed if you were waiting n

by Neil44 3y ago

I always wondered what the queueing situation is at chargers since most locations aren't physically set up for it. You'd be really annoyed if you were waiting nearby for ages for a free charger then someone else swooped in. Or they were waiting too but you weren't aware so now you're both mad. The chargers should have ticketing built in.

londons_explore 3y ago
Someone like Tesla could ensure that queues never happen. Not by building an infinite number of chargers (clearly impossible), but by telling users to continue onwards with their journey early as soon as someone else shows up who is more in need of charge. Using that technique, and relying on the fact different users are going in different directions, demand can be shifted to other sites hundreds of miles away and many hours into the future. You can also shift demand onto users home chargers (make them arrive home with less charge).
- TillE 3y ago
  "Please leave now" sounds like terrible UX, especially if you've gone off to eat somewhere while your vehicle charges. Most of the time, the vast majority of your charging should be at home. For edge cases like this, well, it is pretty cheap to build out charging infrastructure at any highway rest stop. Longer term, there are plenty of possible solutions with an SDV public transit system.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    You don't say "Please leave now". You say "Recommended charge time: 15 minutes. Any stay over 25 minutes will be charged an extra parking fee, or you can move the car to a non-electric parking space for free.". You don't need every user to obey - just ~half of users following your recommendations should keep enough spots free for more incoming cars (which Tesla can predict pretty accurately ~an hour into the future)
  - kccqzy 3y ago
    Idle fees and parking fees are a solution. Say $1/min after charging has finished. Feel free to eat elsewhere while your vehicle racks up huge parking fees. By the way, I think with how fast DCFC is becoming, we are currently in a weird situation where there's still time for people to have a meal. In the near future, charging would be so fast that you basically have to stay with the vehicle.
    - traceroute66 3y ago
      > Idle fees and parking fees are a solution. Say $1/min after charging has finished. Feel free to eat elsewhere while your vehicle racks up huge parking fees. Well, that assumes people leave the vehicle. What more frequently happens is there is someone in the vehicle doing work, watching Netflix, sleeping or whatever. When the charge is done, they take 10 seconds out to unplug, and then go sit back in the vehicle.
      - kccqzy 3y ago
        That makes the problem even simpler. Every charging spot I've been to has signage that says if a car is parked but not plugged in, it will be towed. Sometimes management has hesitation calling the tow truck if a car is plugged in because they might not know if charging is in progress. When the car is clearly unplugged, call the tow truck.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  It would be great if all the newer charging networks would expose an API with enough information to guide charger strategy. Although I do think it might be hard to make a "keep going, someone else needs it more" strategy work. Someone will certainly try to hack it and make sure they never have to wait for a charger by lying about their state of charge. Might be more straightforward to just build out enough capacity so queues rarely occur. Unlike gas stations which always need tanks, electricity already exists in some quantity pretty much everywhere so we can spread out the chargers.
- itscrush 3y ago
  I believe both suggestions exist and are active within Tesla' ecosystem today. Even if they don't actually enforce or penalize, the incentives and nudges happen. When using Tesla nav and needing an SC mid journey, Tesla notifies on screen and notifies via the phone app to leave as your state of charge is enough for next leg of journey. Likewise when using built in nav and catching a last SC leg of a trip, it by default has you arriving at low SOC% too. Likewise, it's advantageous to have a home charger and use it purely on cost in my experience. I haven't encountered any daytime SC cost that was cheaper than my home power cost. [edit for clarity] Tesla does penalize for sitting on a charger, plugged in, after you've reached your charge limit set.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    Yet there are still queues at superchargers... I'd say they need more algorithms work to make sure they never get to overfull.
- richardw 3y ago
  Or an express queue with only 10m top up allowed, higher rate if you go over that. Or dynamic rates so some areas get cheaper and peak areas more expensive? Might get accused of profiting from surge prices. But might allow people who can shift where they charge to help spread the load. Or create a secondary market. Rent out your home charger. Booking app.
itscrush 3y ago
It's entirely ad hoc per location at Telsa SCs in my experience, even as every Tesla using nav gets notified to leave as soon as they have enough for next leg of trip. Usually queues are obvious where it's 1 way in/out of a charger block. I've found it's up to the first in queue to establish and 'defend' the queue though. Many times folks charging know and nudge / wave / flash lights at the actual next in queue while slow rolling out for them to get in. Very common for those queues to be obviously double park or line up idling if there's enough room but again depends. The worst locations are where there's back to back rows and both row ends have entrance/exit. Common at Target or other SCs in very large but not long lots. Where, I've seen a queue form on both ends.
- mike-cardwell 3y ago
  This sounds like a nightmare to me. With petrol, you just pull into a spot. Rare that you even need to queue. Extremely rare to have to queue for more than a few minutes. Once you're in, you're back on your way in a couple of minutes. No conflict. Having to fight for a charger spot, and potentially queue for 10s of minutes, and then wait tens of minutes for your car to charge, and be ready to leave when you're told to... Nightmare. Hopefully the situation will improve quickly. If not, my next car will be a plug in hybrid.

by Neil44 3y ago

londons_explore 3y ago

Someone like Tesla could ensure that queues never happen. Not by building an infinite number of chargers (clearly impossible), but by telling users to continue onwards with their journey early as soon as someone else shows up who is more in need of charge. Using that technique, and relying on the fact different users are going in different directions, demand can be shifted to other sites hundreds of miles away and many hours into the future. You can also shift demand onto users home chargers (make them arrive home with less charge).

TillE 3y ago
"Please leave now" sounds like terrible UX, especially if you've gone off to eat somewhere while your vehicle charges. Most of the time, the vast majority of your charging should be at home. For edge cases like this, well, it is pretty cheap to build out charging infrastructure at any highway rest stop. Longer term, there are plenty of possible solutions with an SDV public transit system.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  You don't say "Please leave now". You say "Recommended charge time: 15 minutes. Any stay over 25 minutes will be charged an extra parking fee, or you can move the car to a non-electric parking space for free.". You don't need every user to obey - just ~half of users following your recommendations should keep enough spots free for more incoming cars (which Tesla can predict pretty accurately ~an hour into the future)
- kccqzy 3y ago
  Idle fees and parking fees are a solution. Say $1/min after charging has finished. Feel free to eat elsewhere while your vehicle racks up huge parking fees. By the way, I think with how fast DCFC is becoming, we are currently in a weird situation where there's still time for people to have a meal. In the near future, charging would be so fast that you basically have to stay with the vehicle.
  - traceroute66 3y ago
    > Idle fees and parking fees are a solution. Say $1/min after charging has finished. Feel free to eat elsewhere while your vehicle racks up huge parking fees. Well, that assumes people leave the vehicle. What more frequently happens is there is someone in the vehicle doing work, watching Netflix, sleeping or whatever. When the charge is done, they take 10 seconds out to unplug, and then go sit back in the vehicle.
    - kccqzy 3y ago
      That makes the problem even simpler. Every charging spot I've been to has signage that says if a car is parked but not plugged in, it will be towed. Sometimes management has hesitation calling the tow truck if a car is plugged in because they might not know if charging is in progress. When the car is clearly unplugged, call the tow truck.
rootusrootus 3y ago
It would be great if all the newer charging networks would expose an API with enough information to guide charger strategy. Although I do think it might be hard to make a "keep going, someone else needs it more" strategy work. Someone will certainly try to hack it and make sure they never have to wait for a charger by lying about their state of charge. Might be more straightforward to just build out enough capacity so queues rarely occur. Unlike gas stations which always need tanks, electricity already exists in some quantity pretty much everywhere so we can spread out the chargers.
itscrush 3y ago
I believe both suggestions exist and are active within Tesla' ecosystem today. Even if they don't actually enforce or penalize, the incentives and nudges happen. When using Tesla nav and needing an SC mid journey, Tesla notifies on screen and notifies via the phone app to leave as your state of charge is enough for next leg of journey. Likewise when using built in nav and catching a last SC leg of a trip, it by default has you arriving at low SOC% too. Likewise, it's advantageous to have a home charger and use it purely on cost in my experience. I haven't encountered any daytime SC cost that was cheaper than my home power cost. [edit for clarity] Tesla does penalize for sitting on a charger, plugged in, after you've reached your charge limit set.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  Yet there are still queues at superchargers... I'd say they need more algorithms work to make sure they never get to overfull.
richardw 3y ago
Or an express queue with only 10m top up allowed, higher rate if you go over that. Or dynamic rates so some areas get cheaper and peak areas more expensive? Might get accused of profiting from surge prices. But might allow people who can shift where they charge to help spread the load. Or create a secondary market. Rent out your home charger. Booking app.

itscrush 3y ago

It's entirely ad hoc per location at Telsa SCs in my experience, even as every Tesla using nav gets notified to leave as soon as they have enough for next leg of trip. Usually queues are obvious where it's 1 way in/out of a charger block. I've found it's up to the first in queue to establish and 'defend' the queue though. Many times folks charging know and nudge / wave / flash lights at the actual next in queue while slow rolling out for them to get in. Very common for those queues to be obviously double park or line up idling if there's enough room but again depends. The worst locations are where there's back to back rows and both row ends have entrance/exit. Common at Target or other SCs in very large but not long lots. Where, I've seen a queue form on both ends.

mike-cardwell 3y ago
This sounds like a nightmare to me. With petrol, you just pull into a spot. Rare that you even need to queue. Extremely rare to have to queue for more than a few minutes. Once you're in, you're back on your way in a couple of minutes. No conflict. Having to fight for a charger spot, and potentially queue for 10s of minutes, and then wait tens of minutes for your car to charge, and be ready to leave when you're told to... Nightmare. Hopefully the situation will improve quickly. If not, my next car will be a plug in hybrid.