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> (guaranteed because of the chemistry and physics of battery - charge/recharge cycles, temperature and even just sitting idle in the garage will erode battery

by tekla 3y ago

> (guaranteed because of the chemistry and physics of battery - charge/recharge cycles, temperature and even just sitting idle in the garage will erode battery life anyway) Please post the "guarantee" based on chemistry and physics. https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-rep... > While it was a major issue, it’s still impressive that the original battery lasted over 300,000 miles or 500,000 km. https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/ https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-ba... > According to Tesla's 2021 impact report, its batteries are designed to last the life of the vehicle, which the company estimates as roughly 200,000 miles in the U.S. and 150,000 miles in Europe. Tesla's own data show Model S and X batteries retain about 90 percent of their original capacity on average over 200,000 miles of use. > whereas cheapest battery replacement costs are north of 25,000 USD/EURO - sometimes 25% or more of the cost of the a new car. Where are you getting these numbers from? https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-often-do-tesla-batteries-need-to-be-replaced https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-often-do-te... Here are a couple of price examples: Anywhere around $13,000-$20,000 for Models S At least $14,000 for a Model X premium SUV At least $13,000 for a Model 3 entry-level sedan I'm supposing you are just making shit up

addisonl 3y ago
This doesn’t prove anything when it comes to battery age, this is just high mileage teslas.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- tekla 3y ago
  Prove what? The OP said it was guaranteed to fail within 8-10 years. That number is clearly made up since the base warranty is already 8 years, and we already have examples of batteries that are older keeping up just fine. Its OP's responsibility to prove their claims. But they can't, because they are making up numbers
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  High mileage is high cycles. If the complaint is that batteries die at high cycles, high mileage is a greatly corresponded metric.
pjc50 3y ago
You can also see 2013 Nissan Leafs on ebay, although those are quoted at 50 mile range because the battery has somewhat degraded. Honestly I suspect the first decade or so of electric cars will not have long lives, because the technology keeps overtaking them.
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  I think it's fair to just exclude Leafs from the discussion altogether. They did not have any meaningful thermal management for the battery, which has a huge effect on longevity. AFAIK all other modern EVs have thermal management and it puts them in an entirely different category.
- jazzyjackson 3y ago
  The 2013 Nissan Leaf had a range of ~75 miles when it was brand new. 33% degredation is nothing to write off but like my sibling says, leaf has always been a lemon of an EV.
wg0 3y ago
Tesla's claims are their to make, they can say whatever they want and what incentive they have to say something against the whole category of their main and only product. They have been saying bunch of stuff about automated driving, Tesla truck which isn't even possible under current laws of physics. The real world mileage depletes with every usage and depletes faster. Having more charging stations along the way isn't very helpful because charging isn't instantaneous. If your battery lasts barely 50 miles, a charging station every 40 miles isn't helpful because you'd be sitting ducks there every 80 miles or so waiting your battery to have enough energy to catapult you to the next charging station. About costs - I did inquire it myself for a German EV, battery had to be imported and I was quoted around 20,000 USD. Tesla has been quoting this much as well [0] Whereas a full ICE engine rebuild would be 1/10th of that, easily. https://electrek.co/2021/09/13/tesla-battery-pack-replacement-repair/ https://electrek.co/2021/09/13/tesla-battery-pack-replacemen...
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  It's not just Tesla. Their are enough > 10 year old EV's of multiple brands on the road to get statistics. And the only EV that regularly requires battery replacement is the Nissan Leaf, which doesn't have battery thermal management. Every EV with battery thermal management is seeing a significant majority of their batteries outlast their cars. And if you're worried about battery life, buy a car with a LiFePo4 battery. Those batteries last 3x as long as batteries with a nickel chemistry. So instead of 200,000 miles you get 600,000 miles.
wg0 3y ago
About range, please note the conclusion as the end of first link that you referenced: > That said, the overall dataset seems to be pointing to Tesla’s 90 kWh battery packs performing badly in general. Keyword here - general. And I am not talking about Tesla specifically. Just EVs in general. Second article that you quoted contains this about the costs: > In the event your Tesla needs an out-of-warranty battery replacement, you can expect to pay between $10,000 and $20,000 depending on the model, local labor costs, and taxes. 10 to 20,000 USD whereas I projected it to around 25,000 because I am adjusting for inflation as the article is from 2020 and we're in 2023 with massive wave of inflation everywhere.
- xur17 3y ago
  > 10 to 20,000 USD whereas I projected it to around 25,000 because I am adjusting for inflation as the article is from 2020 and we're in 2023 with massive wave of inflation everywhere. I would imagine the cost of batteries would go down as the technology improves, and the production scale increases. It wouldn't surprise me if this decrease was faster than inflation right now.
jasmer 3y ago
[dead]
Etheryte 3y ago
150k to 200k miles is not a lot though? Every car I've ever owned has passed those landmarks easily unless I've sold it first without being anywhere close to "end of life". In other words, if your battery only lasts that long then the battery most definitely is the limiting factor.

by tekla 3y ago

addisonl 3y ago

This doesn’t prove anything when it comes to battery age, this is just high mileage teslas.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tekla 3y ago
Prove what? The OP said it was guaranteed to fail within 8-10 years. That number is clearly made up since the base warranty is already 8 years, and we already have examples of batteries that are older keeping up just fine. Its OP's responsibility to prove their claims. But they can't, because they are making up numbers
WorldMaker 3y ago
High mileage is high cycles. If the complaint is that batteries die at high cycles, high mileage is a greatly corresponded metric.

pjc50 3y ago

You can also see 2013 Nissan Leafs on ebay, although those are quoted at 50 mile range because the battery has somewhat degraded. Honestly I suspect the first decade or so of electric cars will not have long lives, because the technology keeps overtaking them.

rootusrootus 3y ago
I think it's fair to just exclude Leafs from the discussion altogether. They did not have any meaningful thermal management for the battery, which has a huge effect on longevity. AFAIK all other modern EVs have thermal management and it puts them in an entirely different category.
jazzyjackson 3y ago
The 2013 Nissan Leaf had a range of ~75 miles when it was brand new. 33% degredation is nothing to write off but like my sibling says, leaf has always been a lemon of an EV.

wg0 3y ago

Tesla's claims are their to make, they can say whatever they want and what incentive they have to say something against the whole category of their main and only product. They have been saying bunch of stuff about automated driving, Tesla truck which isn't even possible under current laws of physics. The real world mileage depletes with every usage and depletes faster. Having more charging stations along the way isn't very helpful because charging isn't instantaneous. If your battery lasts barely 50 miles, a charging station every 40 miles isn't helpful because you'd be sitting ducks there every 80 miles or so waiting your battery to have enough energy to catapult you to the next charging station. About costs - I did inquire it myself for a German EV, battery had to be imported and I was quoted around 20,000 USD. Tesla has been quoting this much as well [0] Whereas a full ICE engine rebuild would be 1/10th of that, easily. https://electrek.co/2021/09/13/tesla-battery-pack-replacement-repair/ https://electrek.co/2021/09/13/tesla-battery-pack-replacemen...

bryanlarsen 3y ago
It's not just Tesla. Their are enough > 10 year old EV's of multiple brands on the road to get statistics. And the only EV that regularly requires battery replacement is the Nissan Leaf, which doesn't have battery thermal management. Every EV with battery thermal management is seeing a significant majority of their batteries outlast their cars. And if you're worried about battery life, buy a car with a LiFePo4 battery. Those batteries last 3x as long as batteries with a nickel chemistry. So instead of 200,000 miles you get 600,000 miles.

wg0 3y ago

About range, please note the conclusion as the end of first link that you referenced: > That said, the overall dataset seems to be pointing to Tesla’s 90 kWh battery packs performing badly in general. Keyword here - general. And I am not talking about Tesla specifically. Just EVs in general. Second article that you quoted contains this about the costs: > In the event your Tesla needs an out-of-warranty battery replacement, you can expect to pay between $10,000 and $20,000 depending on the model, local labor costs, and taxes. 10 to 20,000 USD whereas I projected it to around 25,000 because I am adjusting for inflation as the article is from 2020 and we're in 2023 with massive wave of inflation everywhere.

xur17 3y ago
> 10 to 20,000 USD whereas I projected it to around 25,000 because I am adjusting for inflation as the article is from 2020 and we're in 2023 with massive wave of inflation everywhere. I would imagine the cost of batteries would go down as the technology improves, and the production scale increases. It wouldn't surprise me if this decrease was faster than inflation right now.

jasmer 3y ago

[dead]

Etheryte 3y ago

150k to 200k miles is not a lot though? Every car I've ever owned has passed those landmarks easily unless I've sold it first without being anywhere close to "end of life". In other words, if your battery only lasts that long then the battery most definitely is the limiting factor.