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This essentially means that gas stations will add fast chargers to their parking spaces, as there is already an European directive mandating a gas station every

This essentially means that gas stations will add fast chargers to their parking spaces, as there is already an European directive mandating a gas station every 100Km (I think) in highways and freeways.

pmontra 3y ago
Yes, this is probably what's going to happen. After all they'll want to stay in business: as they'll sell less and less gas they'll have to sell more and more electricity. I wonder if they'll buy some thick line or if they'll use gas or diesel generators to charge a big battery, plus solar panels.
- pjc50 3y ago
  > they'll use gas or diesel generators This obviously can't be allowed to happen .. but I don't think there's any sign of that, as grid electricity remains cheaper than onsite generation. On a trip last month it was very noticeable that several rest stops had under-construction chargers in addition to the one or two that had previously been put in.
  - flavius29663 3y ago
    I would argue it SHOULD be allowed to happen, maybe even encourage it. An EV that needs a gas powered generator for 0-1% of its life is many times better than an ICE that needs a gas powered generator for 100% of its life. If you allow gas powered generators to complement EV stations, you will have more EV charging stations in remote areas or otherwise areas that wouldn't see EV chargers. Every extra EV charger will drive up the adoption.
    - pjc50 3y ago
      > If you allow gas powered generators to complement EV stations, you will have more EV charging stations in remote areas But you don't have to do this! You can just put them on the grid. There are very few places that are truly off grid in Europe, mostly on islands, and absolutely zero on motorways.
      - flavius29663 3y ago
        The power requirements for charging stations are massive! A Tesla can draw 250kW. If you have 10 chargers, that is 2.5MW. You won't get that everywhere... If you can install a 2.5MW diesel generator to cover those areas, encouraging adoption, that is a good thing. I am not talking about 4 lane motorways, where access to megawatt power lines might not be that challenging, but more remote areas.
        ffhhttt 3y ago
        Do you really need 10 chargers at 250kW in such remote areas? Maybe 2 chargers 50kW would be perfectly sufficient and much more economical outside of freeways?
        londons_explore 3y ago
        10 250kw chargers are frequently only supplied by 1 megawatt of power supply. They rely on the fact that it is common for some of the stalls to be empty, occupied by cars that have finished charging or can't charge at the full rate for whatever reason. Some sites have batteries to provide a bit more power for the busiest times too. That has the benefit that those same batteries can participate in grid balancing the rest of the time (buying and selling power for profit, and getting paid for various technical grid services too).
        flavius29663 3y ago
        > Maybe 2 chargers 50kW would be perfectly sufficient and much more economical outside of freeways? That remains for the free market to decide....if the owner considers a generator is cheaper, then leave him be. Where grid power is enough, electricity will be much cheaper than a generator, so if the owner wants a generator, it's probably a choice between having a generator charger vs no charger.
        ffhhttt 3y ago
        > so if the owner wants a generator, it's probably a choice between having a generator charger vs no charger. Possibly. But I would expect this to be a very uncommon scenario. Unless you’re running a car race* for instance you’d have to have a situation where somebody would both be willing to pay 2x or more per kWh and also prefer to not charge their car at all if they couldn’t do it in 5-15 minutes. * https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/f1/news-red-bull-s-helmut-marko-accuses-fraud-formula-e-using-diesel-generators-charge-cars https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/f1/news-red-bull-s-helmut-ma...
- philippgerard 3y ago
  It’s very hard to get the permission to run diesel generators for anything else than backup power here. And even then, it needs to be timed very precisely to be in line with regulations.
owenwil 3y ago
This is what's happening in Canada, very aggressively. One of our biggest petrol companies (Parkland, who owns Pioneer, Columbia Fuels, Ultramar, Chevron, and many Esso franchises) has an aggressive plan to install fast chargers at basically all of their locations—and convert their retail to destinations with stuff to do while you wait[0]. They're already aggressively executing on this; where I live in BC they're already installing them up and down the highways, so I use them frequently already. One interesting thing they do is give you discounts on things like coffees or burgers if you're charging; smart way to get you inside. [0] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-parkland-gas-station-ev-investors/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-parkland-ga...
- xxpor 3y ago
  I just drove from the US border to the yukon, and the amount of fast charging available in BC, even north of Prince George, shocked me! We took our diesel truck for other reasons, but we thought we could have done this trip in the model 3 with the CCS converter no problem.

pmontra 3y ago

Yes, this is probably what's going to happen. After all they'll want to stay in business: as they'll sell less and less gas they'll have to sell more and more electricity. I wonder if they'll buy some thick line or if they'll use gas or diesel generators to charge a big battery, plus solar panels.

pjc50 3y ago
> they'll use gas or diesel generators This obviously can't be allowed to happen .. but I don't think there's any sign of that, as grid electricity remains cheaper than onsite generation. On a trip last month it was very noticeable that several rest stops had under-construction chargers in addition to the one or two that had previously been put in.
- flavius29663 3y ago
  I would argue it SHOULD be allowed to happen, maybe even encourage it. An EV that needs a gas powered generator for 0-1% of its life is many times better than an ICE that needs a gas powered generator for 100% of its life. If you allow gas powered generators to complement EV stations, you will have more EV charging stations in remote areas or otherwise areas that wouldn't see EV chargers. Every extra EV charger will drive up the adoption.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    > If you allow gas powered generators to complement EV stations, you will have more EV charging stations in remote areas But you don't have to do this! You can just put them on the grid. There are very few places that are truly off grid in Europe, mostly on islands, and absolutely zero on motorways.
    - flavius29663 3y ago
      The power requirements for charging stations are massive! A Tesla can draw 250kW. If you have 10 chargers, that is 2.5MW. You won't get that everywhere... If you can install a 2.5MW diesel generator to cover those areas, encouraging adoption, that is a good thing. I am not talking about 4 lane motorways, where access to megawatt power lines might not be that challenging, but more remote areas.
      - ffhhttt 3y ago
        Do you really need 10 chargers at 250kW in such remote areas? Maybe 2 chargers 50kW would be perfectly sufficient and much more economical outside of freeways?
        londons_explore 3y ago
        10 250kw chargers are frequently only supplied by 1 megawatt of power supply. They rely on the fact that it is common for some of the stalls to be empty, occupied by cars that have finished charging or can't charge at the full rate for whatever reason. Some sites have batteries to provide a bit more power for the busiest times too. That has the benefit that those same batteries can participate in grid balancing the rest of the time (buying and selling power for profit, and getting paid for various technical grid services too).
        flavius29663 3y ago
        > Maybe 2 chargers 50kW would be perfectly sufficient and much more economical outside of freeways? That remains for the free market to decide....if the owner considers a generator is cheaper, then leave him be. Where grid power is enough, electricity will be much cheaper than a generator, so if the owner wants a generator, it's probably a choice between having a generator charger vs no charger.
        ffhhttt 3y ago
        > so if the owner wants a generator, it's probably a choice between having a generator charger vs no charger. Possibly. But I would expect this to be a very uncommon scenario. Unless you’re running a car race* for instance you’d have to have a situation where somebody would both be willing to pay 2x or more per kWh and also prefer to not charge their car at all if they couldn’t do it in 5-15 minutes. * https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/f1/news-red-bull-s-helmut-marko-accuses-fraud-formula-e-using-diesel-generators-charge-cars https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/f1/news-red-bull-s-helmut-ma...
philippgerard 3y ago
It’s very hard to get the permission to run diesel generators for anything else than backup power here. And even then, it needs to be timed very precisely to be in line with regulations.

owenwil 3y ago

This is what's happening in Canada, very aggressively. One of our biggest petrol companies (Parkland, who owns Pioneer, Columbia Fuels, Ultramar, Chevron, and many Esso franchises) has an aggressive plan to install fast chargers at basically all of their locations—and convert their retail to destinations with stuff to do while you wait[0]. They're already aggressively executing on this; where I live in BC they're already installing them up and down the highways, so I use them frequently already. One interesting thing they do is give you discounts on things like coffees or burgers if you're charging; smart way to get you inside. [0] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-parkland-gas-station-ev-investors/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-parkland-ga...

xxpor 3y ago
I just drove from the US border to the yukon, and the amount of fast charging available in BC, even north of Prince George, shocked me! We took our diesel truck for other reasons, but we thought we could have done this trip in the model 3 with the CCS converter no problem.