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I really wish men and women could body swap for a day so we could better empathize with each other. Most men don’t really see that the world tells women “the mo

I really wish men and women could body swap for a day so we could better empathize with each other. Most men don’t really see that the world tells women “the most important thing you can be is pretty”. Whatever else you might have accomplished in life really pales in comparison to your looks. It’s just the way it is. This holds especially true outside the Bay Area bubble. Many of my wonderful male friends are just astonished at how much time and energy and money that I spend to be beautiful. I don’t think they understand how much society judges me on my looks. How it forces me to constantly compare myself to other women. How awful those moments are when I feel that I don’t have it. How women are acutely aware of and expected to “fix” our physical “shortcomings”: the hair on our face and legs and armpits and bikini lines and backs, our even-slightly-blemished skin (how dare we have pores), our thick ankles, our fleshy arms and stomach, our facial features (everything from thin lips to nose shape can be “fixed”), our hair color and texture, cuticles and unpainted nails on both hands and feet, callused feet, moles, under eye darkness and bags and wrinkles, thigh cellulite, breast shape, flabby arms, creased forehead and cheeks, short or saggy neck, unlifted lashes, low cheekbones, eyebrow shape, jaw and neck definition, etc etc. and especially, any signs of aging. We don’t ever become “silver foxes” or look “distinguished”- aging is the enemy. In today’s world, the scrutiny of men’s appearance will never even come close to the microscope that women live under. Truly. An ugly man can make it way further in life than an ugly woman. And worse, women are brought up to really care what others think of them, and to make everyone else comfortable at their own expense. So you can’t just “stop caring what people say”. That would really screw you over in this world. I imagine that beauty is for women what money is for men. It’s our currency and often what makes us valuable to the group of the shallow “others” in this society.

nashashmi 3y ago
Women communicate in a variety of ways. One of the prime ways they communicate, even with other women, is through looks. So enhancing looks is the first step of communication. And so there is also competition. I have noticed in a large group of women, if there is someone who comes to work highly focused in looks, the other women begin to do the same. And in similar style too. Men don’t really study that much into looks. They are less sharp about it. But ugly men get less attention too. If they don’t dress well, they get less noticed. In such cases, the surviving men who don’t look great have something else that sets them apart: high level of intellect. What sets women apart, if not looks, is discipline and reliability.
- formulathree 3y ago
  [dead]
  - nashashmi 3y ago
    > The essential object of competition is "ability to attract and influence men" I completely disagree. communication via appearance starts from an early age. Young girls (less than 7 yrs old) try to look pretty. There is communication too between girls via appearance. boys don’t enter the picture until much later. Remember the red and blue journalists attending China’s presidential address. The red coat journalist got the mic and spoke of unrelenting support. The blue coat journalist was so taken aback by this weird support she began to eye the person from top to bottom. Both were women. And were native Chinese working for American media companies. They communicate with looks.
    - formulathree 3y ago
      >I completely disagree. communication via appearance starts from an early age. Young girls (less than 7 yrs old) try to look pretty. This is because the behavior is ingrained in biology. But make no mistake behavior ingrained in biology is from selection pressure and that selection pressure is sexual selection. Men select the women who are more interested in making themselves look pretty. >There is communication too between girls via appearance. boys don’t enter the picture until much later. The communication is this: If a girl looks prettier she is saying, "I'm better at attracting and manipulating men than you." That's the only thing communicated. >They communicate with looks. You're thinking too much. Do men communicate by getting rough and rowdy? Do men communicate by playing sports? Maybe? But the extent of the communication is minimal and it's the same thing with women and looks. There's hidden communication network that men don't know about, that's much to imaginative. Additionally, if such a network existed, some woman would eventually spill the beans.
      - nashashmi 3y ago
        Men don’t communicate (as much). The rest of your hypothesis rests on an idea that women evolved (into a species?) with reinforced traits focusing on appearance. Disagree here Because Men and women didn’t evolve into different “species” And neither do we find similarities between them in this regard. Selection pressure is an idea that tries to explain the trends in evolution. It is just an idea. It would be careless to trace everything in current state of behaviors to evolutionary changes. You would be better off leaving evolution out of the picture. (Edit: I’m deeply disturbed by your view. The people who advocate for child-love use similar reasoning.)
randomdata 3y ago
> We don’t ever become “silver foxes” or look “distinguished” While perhaps a little more crude, doesn't "MILF" convey the same intent with respect to women? All of the above speak to an attractiveness found in those who are considered older. There are plenty of women in their later stages of life who are still considered very attractive. > aging is the enemy. I posit that becoming "boring" is the ultimate enemy. Indeed, becoming boring is correlated with age. People tend to settle down as they become older, and that is what is considered least attractive. The movers and shakers don't want to associate with someone who thinks watching TV on a Saturday night is a good time. > An ugly man can make it way further in life than an ugly woman. It does appear to be true, statistically, that it takes men longer to mature. In fact, stereotypically, there is an idea that men will never grow up. The longer you keep at doing "stupid kid things" the greater the chances that you will eventually strike gold.
- anonporridge 3y ago
  > The longer you keep at doing "stupid kid things" the greater the chances that you will eventually strike gold. This is somewhat the key to success as a man, and what they're evolved to do. Men don't get to live a life staying safe in the cave. Men are the species' tool for throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. That's why the bell curve for male success/failure is much flatter than it is for women. More extreme successes and more extreme failures. Men are the element of the human tribe that take on huge risks to discover new and valuable things. When it works, the success can be massive and disproportionate. When it fails, it fails hard, often in death. And usually, there's no (or little) safety net for men. There's a reason why 75% of the homeless are men. This does seem like a necessary outcome of the harsh reality of supply and demand of sexual reproduction, that eggs and wombs are scarce and valuable while sperm is abundant and cheap.
stuckinhell 3y ago
I used to think like you, until my brother committed suicide from loneliness and rejection. I look at his suicide note every so often,and worry about my boys. Most men absolutely care what people think, and want to make other people comfortable. My brother, my father, your wonderful friends, probably do too. Women and men have very different burdens, and its extremely clear the grass is not greener on the other side. Most people are not the high performing ruthless psychopathic type A personality common in Silicon Valley, New York, Miami, etc. I'm a Korean woman that grew up in a white Surburbia, the meanest people to me were brown haired "average" white girls. They insulted my hair, my eyes, my nose, and my lack of nasal bridge, literally everything you can think of. I believe the primate social hierarchy at play, and at our core many of us are trying to "win" that hierarchy. At the same time, I think certain types of people gravitate to cities and certain lifestyles.
- neonate 3y ago
  I am touched by your very thoughtful comment, and I'm sorry about your brother.
- formulathree 3y ago
  [dead]
formulathree 3y ago
[flagged]
- noSyncCloud 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 3y ago
    Please don't post snarky dismissals to HN. The parent commenter may have been wrong, even completely wrong, but they didn't deserve this. Unfortunately, you've posted similarly in other places recently (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36515859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36515859). That's not what we're trying for on this site. Would you be willing to review the guidelines at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the intended spirit more to heart? We'd be grateful.
  - formulathree 3y ago
    Agreed. This issue you're talking about is the forefront of the political climate in the US today. Do we speak the truth? Or do we speak in terms of empathy so as to not diminish constructive conversation? It hurts my feelings when someone says 99% of all rape cases are from men. I may get angry when someone says that and that is, like you said, not leading to "constructive conversation." But the issue here is that the 99% statistic is also the truth. So that's the big question with social justice and liberal politics today. How much do we bend reality for the sake of feelings or "constructive" discussion? When does reality get so bent that "constructive discussion" is no longer "constructive"? Let's not talk about rape and let's not talk about how males are the majority instigators because it hurts my feelings and is not constructive. Additionally there's very selective application of "constructive discussion". For example you see a lot of rightly placed discussion about the male/female pay gap but no discussion on the fact that males make up 70% of homeless people. The 20% pay gap is by far the bigger issue here. Why? I wrote a lot here because I care about the subject. For my money, I would argue that your one liner comment against the massive content I'm putting up here is the one that is "dismissive".
MichaelZuo 3y ago
Angela Merkel pretty solidly disproves this. Granted there aren't a lot of women like her, but even a single counterexample is sufficient to disprove broad assertions.

nashashmi 3y ago

Women communicate in a variety of ways. One of the prime ways they communicate, even with other women, is through looks. So enhancing looks is the first step of communication. And so there is also competition. I have noticed in a large group of women, if there is someone who comes to work highly focused in looks, the other women begin to do the same. And in similar style too. Men don’t really study that much into looks. They are less sharp about it. But ugly men get less attention too. If they don’t dress well, they get less noticed. In such cases, the surviving men who don’t look great have something else that sets them apart: high level of intellect. What sets women apart, if not looks, is discipline and reliability.

formulathree 3y ago
[dead]
- nashashmi 3y ago
  > The essential object of competition is "ability to attract and influence men" I completely disagree. communication via appearance starts from an early age. Young girls (less than 7 yrs old) try to look pretty. There is communication too between girls via appearance. boys don’t enter the picture until much later. Remember the red and blue journalists attending China’s presidential address. The red coat journalist got the mic and spoke of unrelenting support. The blue coat journalist was so taken aback by this weird support she began to eye the person from top to bottom. Both were women. And were native Chinese working for American media companies. They communicate with looks.
  - formulathree 3y ago
    >I completely disagree. communication via appearance starts from an early age. Young girls (less than 7 yrs old) try to look pretty. This is because the behavior is ingrained in biology. But make no mistake behavior ingrained in biology is from selection pressure and that selection pressure is sexual selection. Men select the women who are more interested in making themselves look pretty. >There is communication too between girls via appearance. boys don’t enter the picture until much later. The communication is this: If a girl looks prettier she is saying, "I'm better at attracting and manipulating men than you." That's the only thing communicated. >They communicate with looks. You're thinking too much. Do men communicate by getting rough and rowdy? Do men communicate by playing sports? Maybe? But the extent of the communication is minimal and it's the same thing with women and looks. There's hidden communication network that men don't know about, that's much to imaginative. Additionally, if such a network existed, some woman would eventually spill the beans.
    - nashashmi 3y ago
      Men don’t communicate (as much). The rest of your hypothesis rests on an idea that women evolved (into a species?) with reinforced traits focusing on appearance. Disagree here Because Men and women didn’t evolve into different “species” And neither do we find similarities between them in this regard. Selection pressure is an idea that tries to explain the trends in evolution. It is just an idea. It would be careless to trace everything in current state of behaviors to evolutionary changes. You would be better off leaving evolution out of the picture. (Edit: I’m deeply disturbed by your view. The people who advocate for child-love use similar reasoning.)

randomdata 3y ago

> We don’t ever become “silver foxes” or look “distinguished” While perhaps a little more crude, doesn't "MILF" convey the same intent with respect to women? All of the above speak to an attractiveness found in those who are considered older. There are plenty of women in their later stages of life who are still considered very attractive. > aging is the enemy. I posit that becoming "boring" is the ultimate enemy. Indeed, becoming boring is correlated with age. People tend to settle down as they become older, and that is what is considered least attractive. The movers and shakers don't want to associate with someone who thinks watching TV on a Saturday night is a good time. > An ugly man can make it way further in life than an ugly woman. It does appear to be true, statistically, that it takes men longer to mature. In fact, stereotypically, there is an idea that men will never grow up. The longer you keep at doing "stupid kid things" the greater the chances that you will eventually strike gold.

anonporridge 3y ago
> The longer you keep at doing "stupid kid things" the greater the chances that you will eventually strike gold. This is somewhat the key to success as a man, and what they're evolved to do. Men don't get to live a life staying safe in the cave. Men are the species' tool for throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. That's why the bell curve for male success/failure is much flatter than it is for women. More extreme successes and more extreme failures. Men are the element of the human tribe that take on huge risks to discover new and valuable things. When it works, the success can be massive and disproportionate. When it fails, it fails hard, often in death. And usually, there's no (or little) safety net for men. There's a reason why 75% of the homeless are men. This does seem like a necessary outcome of the harsh reality of supply and demand of sexual reproduction, that eggs and wombs are scarce and valuable while sperm is abundant and cheap.

stuckinhell 3y ago

I used to think like you, until my brother committed suicide from loneliness and rejection. I look at his suicide note every so often,and worry about my boys. Most men absolutely care what people think, and want to make other people comfortable. My brother, my father, your wonderful friends, probably do too. Women and men have very different burdens, and its extremely clear the grass is not greener on the other side. Most people are not the high performing ruthless psychopathic type A personality common in Silicon Valley, New York, Miami, etc. I'm a Korean woman that grew up in a white Surburbia, the meanest people to me were brown haired "average" white girls. They insulted my hair, my eyes, my nose, and my lack of nasal bridge, literally everything you can think of. I believe the primate social hierarchy at play, and at our core many of us are trying to "win" that hierarchy. At the same time, I think certain types of people gravitate to cities and certain lifestyles.

neonate 3y ago
I am touched by your very thoughtful comment, and I'm sorry about your brother.
formulathree 3y ago
[dead]

formulathree 3y ago

[flagged]

noSyncCloud 3y ago
[flagged]
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't post snarky dismissals to HN. The parent commenter may have been wrong, even completely wrong, but they didn't deserve this. Unfortunately, you've posted similarly in other places recently (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36515859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36515859). That's not what we're trying for on this site. Would you be willing to review the guidelines at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the intended spirit more to heart? We'd be grateful.
- formulathree 3y ago
  Agreed. This issue you're talking about is the forefront of the political climate in the US today. Do we speak the truth? Or do we speak in terms of empathy so as to not diminish constructive conversation? It hurts my feelings when someone says 99% of all rape cases are from men. I may get angry when someone says that and that is, like you said, not leading to "constructive conversation." But the issue here is that the 99% statistic is also the truth. So that's the big question with social justice and liberal politics today. How much do we bend reality for the sake of feelings or "constructive" discussion? When does reality get so bent that "constructive discussion" is no longer "constructive"? Let's not talk about rape and let's not talk about how males are the majority instigators because it hurts my feelings and is not constructive. Additionally there's very selective application of "constructive discussion". For example you see a lot of rightly placed discussion about the male/female pay gap but no discussion on the fact that males make up 70% of homeless people. The 20% pay gap is by far the bigger issue here. Why? I wrote a lot here because I care about the subject. For my money, I would argue that your one liner comment against the massive content I'm putting up here is the one that is "dismissive".

MichaelZuo 3y ago

Angela Merkel pretty solidly disproves this. Granted there aren't a lot of women like her, but even a single counterexample is sufficient to disprove broad assertions.