3 ms·

Calling out a xenophobic movement for what it is is not a bad thing per se. Don't want to be called a racist or fascist? Easy, don't be one. At the very least,

by hef19898 3y ago

Calling out a xenophobic movement for what it is is not a bad thing per se. Don't want to be called a racist or fascist? Easy, don't be one. At the very least, if you are one, don't be offended by being called one...

Gud 3y ago
You can be opposed to mass migration from under developed countries without being a xenophobe(fascist or otherwise) , with vastly different cultural norms. The last 2-3 decades of migration to Sweden has been disastrous and was done against the majority’s will, with gang violence extreme segregation and a diminished social cohesion. Sweden will never be the same
- hef19898 3y ago
  Funny, I remember the days when swedish biker gangs pillaged the cold war era reservist weapon depots to wage their gang wars, using weapons of war. No immigartion was needed back then. But thanks for confirming that most right wing ideology is simply rooted in peoples incapability to cope with change.
  - Gud 3y ago
    The biker wars had few victims, with 11 total deaths, all Nordic countries combined over multiple years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Biker_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Biker_War Last year alone, Sweden had 60 shot dead. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-hits-record-with-60-shot-dead-2022-2022-12-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-hits-record-with... “Strommer said Sweden's sixty shooting deaths this year compared to four in Norway, four in Denmark and two in Finland. The deaths are the tip of an iceberg of violence and organised crime that have put down deep roots in parts of society, Strommer said. Last year, 45 people were shot dead in Sweden. In 2012, the total was 17, according to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention.” I cope well with change. I no longer live in Sweden but I still mourn what happened to my country and what could have been. So much wasted opportunity
    - themitigating 3y ago
      Were those shootings by immigrants?
      - defrost 3y ago
        Qualified 'yes' - it's more due to recent changes in culture, Sweden has had immigrants for a long time. Mostly by younger (18 and under) swedes with no prospects thanks to increased economic kettling (segregation) being used by more established swedish criminal gangs as young hitters serve reduced time and are seen as disposable people. Driven by an increase in black market weapon availability and a criminal culture change away from shooting others in the leg and now shooting to kill. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyDZfYzVGJg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyDZfYzVGJg https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/segregation-behind-gang-related-shootings-bombings-in-sweden-expert/2801311 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/segregation-behind-gang-rela...
      - Gud 3y ago
        Yes, 2nd and 3rd generation.
        hef19898 3y ago
        So, a problem of integration, and not necessarily one of, how did you put it, "mass migration from arab countries and africa". And those social problems, integration of new citizens and migrants, are much more complex than "stop migration". Because even if you did, what's next? Throwing all those people out that are already there? Also those born there (not just Sweden, in Germany it is the same, not to start with France), or just those without proper passports? Everyone, regardless of passport? Or, radical idea, just find a way to successfully integrate everyone in society, even if it means the existing society will have to change.
        Gud 3y ago
        Another radical idea: don’t try to fit a square peg in a round hole. In which country has importing millions of uneducated people with a diametrically different culture actually worked out? I have lived in two highly functional multi cultural societies: Dubai(UAE) for two years, although predominantly muslim people from all over the planet seem to get more or less along. The Emiratis rule with an iron fist, and that seems to do the trick. You even think about joining a violent gang, you’re sent to some prison dungeon for years before being kicked out. Although I’m sure the same deal would work out well in Sweden which is in general also an authoritarian nation(although they prentend otherwise), I doubt this is what most proponents of multi culturalism envision. Now I live in Switzerland, a nation that has three distinct cultures for hundreds of years and seem to integrate foreigners from all over the world very well(though not without problems). The difference between Switzerland and Sweden/Germany/France is the system of direct democracy (where every poor decision can be quickly reverted), in general a bottom up decentralized approach and just as important, you have to QUALIFY YOURSELF to gain residence, and to gain citizenship is difficult(and can be revoked).
Dig1t 3y ago
>Easy, don't be one. So it's "either you agree with me or you're a bigot". Calling Swedes hateful is a joke, they are the nicest and most tolerant people you will find. Leaving 0 middle ground and creating a dichotomy of either "on our side or a nazi" is precisely what is causing so much division in western societies. These words mean nothing anymore, all "racist" means now is just someone who you don't agree with.
onetimeusename 3y ago
What if the people in favor of the immigration are actually the racists and fascists?

Gud 3y ago

You can be opposed to mass migration from under developed countries without being a xenophobe(fascist or otherwise) , with vastly different cultural norms. The last 2-3 decades of migration to Sweden has been disastrous and was done against the majority’s will, with gang violence extreme segregation and a diminished social cohesion. Sweden will never be the same

hef19898 3y ago
Funny, I remember the days when swedish biker gangs pillaged the cold war era reservist weapon depots to wage their gang wars, using weapons of war. No immigartion was needed back then. But thanks for confirming that most right wing ideology is simply rooted in peoples incapability to cope with change.
- Gud 3y ago
  The biker wars had few victims, with 11 total deaths, all Nordic countries combined over multiple years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Biker_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Biker_War Last year alone, Sweden had 60 shot dead. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-hits-record-with-60-shot-dead-2022-2022-12-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-hits-record-with... “Strommer said Sweden's sixty shooting deaths this year compared to four in Norway, four in Denmark and two in Finland. The deaths are the tip of an iceberg of violence and organised crime that have put down deep roots in parts of society, Strommer said. Last year, 45 people were shot dead in Sweden. In 2012, the total was 17, according to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention.” I cope well with change. I no longer live in Sweden but I still mourn what happened to my country and what could have been. So much wasted opportunity
  - themitigating 3y ago
    Were those shootings by immigrants?
    - defrost 3y ago
      Qualified 'yes' - it's more due to recent changes in culture, Sweden has had immigrants for a long time. Mostly by younger (18 and under) swedes with no prospects thanks to increased economic kettling (segregation) being used by more established swedish criminal gangs as young hitters serve reduced time and are seen as disposable people. Driven by an increase in black market weapon availability and a criminal culture change away from shooting others in the leg and now shooting to kill. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyDZfYzVGJg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyDZfYzVGJg https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/segregation-behind-gang-related-shootings-bombings-in-sweden-expert/2801311 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/segregation-behind-gang-rela...
    - Gud 3y ago
      Yes, 2nd and 3rd generation.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        So, a problem of integration, and not necessarily one of, how did you put it, "mass migration from arab countries and africa". And those social problems, integration of new citizens and migrants, are much more complex than "stop migration". Because even if you did, what's next? Throwing all those people out that are already there? Also those born there (not just Sweden, in Germany it is the same, not to start with France), or just those without proper passports? Everyone, regardless of passport? Or, radical idea, just find a way to successfully integrate everyone in society, even if it means the existing society will have to change.
        Gud 3y ago
        Another radical idea: don’t try to fit a square peg in a round hole. In which country has importing millions of uneducated people with a diametrically different culture actually worked out? I have lived in two highly functional multi cultural societies: Dubai(UAE) for two years, although predominantly muslim people from all over the planet seem to get more or less along. The Emiratis rule with an iron fist, and that seems to do the trick. You even think about joining a violent gang, you’re sent to some prison dungeon for years before being kicked out. Although I’m sure the same deal would work out well in Sweden which is in general also an authoritarian nation(although they prentend otherwise), I doubt this is what most proponents of multi culturalism envision. Now I live in Switzerland, a nation that has three distinct cultures for hundreds of years and seem to integrate foreigners from all over the world very well(though not without problems). The difference between Switzerland and Sweden/Germany/France is the system of direct democracy (where every poor decision can be quickly reverted), in general a bottom up decentralized approach and just as important, you have to QUALIFY YOURSELF to gain residence, and to gain citizenship is difficult(and can be revoked).

Dig1t 3y ago

>Easy, don't be one. So it's "either you agree with me or you're a bigot". Calling Swedes hateful is a joke, they are the nicest and most tolerant people you will find. Leaving 0 middle ground and creating a dichotomy of either "on our side or a nazi" is precisely what is causing so much division in western societies. These words mean nothing anymore, all "racist" means now is just someone who you don't agree with.

onetimeusename 3y ago

What if the people in favor of the immigration are actually the racists and fascists?