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Interesting that this is getting downvoted! This has been especially common in my home country Sweden, where these labels were used by the political and media

by Gud 3y ago

Interesting that this is getting downvoted! This has been especially common in my home country Sweden, where these labels were used by the political and media elite to put down the grass roots movement trying to stop mass migration from Africa and the Middle East.

valval 3y ago
Same is happening here in Finland now in full force. It’s scary and fascinating to watch, I hope it gets studied a bit deeper so we know what makes people act like that.
- staunton 3y ago
  How about "people don't like foreigners and strangers"? Most societies in human history have been that way. Even chimpanzees kill members of other groups by default when they find them alone.
  - themitigating 3y ago
    1. Chimps also kill to dominate, is that now an acceptable behavior for people? We aren't animals. 2. If you don't like foreigners you're a bigot and terrible person. Hating someone because of where they are from is illogical because not all people from a specific location act and think the same. Therefore your hatred has no specific valid target.
    - staunton 3y ago
      You misunderstood my comment. I'm not saying anything about what behavior is "acceptable" or endorsing anything. I'm saying that people and animals have been acting that way for a very long time. Tolerance for strangers is more in need of sociological explanation than the opposite. Certainly, the trend towards tolerance exists and is rising over the course of history, which I very much like. It's about asking what the default state is from which society makes "progress". Or are you disputing the historical claim that humans on average have never been more tolerant towards strangers than today?
      - themitigating 3y ago
        I'm saying that people and animals have been acting that way for a very long time So? Just because people have done something for a long time doesn't mean it's right. Or are you disputing the historical claim that humans on average have never been more tolerant towards strangers than today? This seems like it is true but what's the evidence for this claim and why are you asking if I dispute it? Where did I say anything about changes in tolerance over time? Tolerance for strangers is more in need of sociological explanation than the opposite Why? What if humanity over time grows and learns thanks to our ability to store information, like in books. More importantly why do we need an explanation and why does it matter? If you are trying to use the fact that something happened for most of human history then changed recently and that makes it abnormal. Think slavery, rape, woman's right, etc
        staunton 3y ago
        > So? Just because people have done something for a long time doesn't mean it's right. Like I very explicitly said, I do not think it's right. That's not what I'm talking about. > What if humanity over time grows and learns thanks to our ability to store information, like in books. That's going for an explanation. > why do we need an explanation and why does it matter? The original post I responded to asked for an explanation.
        themitigating 3y ago
        I'm saying that people and animals have been acting that way for a very long time. Tolerance for strangers is more in need of sociological explanation than the opposite. Certainly, the trend towards tolerance exists and is rising over the course of history, which I very much like. It's about asking what the default state is from which society makes "progress". You're asking what the default state is? I assume you mean instincts right? Why does it matter, what's the relevance?
bombolo 3y ago
Oh yes... Sweden. Political party initiated by a literal SS soldier, keeps having to kick out members for nazi salutes and similar stuff, but calling them fascists makes you offended... The same government that wants to revoke citizenships and permanent residence permits. Yup, calling them fascists is an abuse of the word. Hahahaha.
- Gud 3y ago
  ? I intentionally didn’t mention the Sweden Democrats. You were branded a fascist, racist, etc. if you spoke up, no matter your political allegiance. You’re just making my point for me. A majority of Swedes have been opposed to this insanity, not just the Sweden Democrats. Sadly voting for them is the only option for anyone who understands what a disaster this is(unless you do like me, decide to move out).
  - bombolo 3y ago
    You seem out of touch with what the government in sweden has been doing so far. I agree that there are big social problems in Sweden. But I don't see how sending Kurds to die in Turkey; and generally blaming every problem that exist on immigrants while doing nothing to address said problems, will solve anything.
    - Gud 3y ago
      No need for ad hominem attacks - I’ve followed Swedish politics all my life. I’ve never argued for sending Kurds to turkey, and I’m not blaming Swedens problems on any immigrants - they are completely self made by self centered so called leaders and a gullible populace who has had little exposure to the outside world. Have a nice day
themitigating 3y ago
Because it can also be true but the comment implies it's only used as an attack.
hef19898 3y ago
Calling out a xenophobic movement for what it is is not a bad thing per se. Don't want to be called a racist or fascist? Easy, don't be one. At the very least, if you are one, don't be offended by being called one...
- Gud 3y ago
  You can be opposed to mass migration from under developed countries without being a xenophobe(fascist or otherwise) , with vastly different cultural norms. The last 2-3 decades of migration to Sweden has been disastrous and was done against the majority’s will, with gang violence extreme segregation and a diminished social cohesion. Sweden will never be the same
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Funny, I remember the days when swedish biker gangs pillaged the cold war era reservist weapon depots to wage their gang wars, using weapons of war. No immigartion was needed back then. But thanks for confirming that most right wing ideology is simply rooted in peoples incapability to cope with change.
    - Gud 3y ago
      The biker wars had few victims, with 11 total deaths, all Nordic countries combined over multiple years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Biker_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Biker_War Last year alone, Sweden had 60 shot dead. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-hits-record-with-60-shot-dead-2022-2022-12-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-hits-record-with... “Strommer said Sweden's sixty shooting deaths this year compared to four in Norway, four in Denmark and two in Finland. The deaths are the tip of an iceberg of violence and organised crime that have put down deep roots in parts of society, Strommer said. Last year, 45 people were shot dead in Sweden. In 2012, the total was 17, according to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention.” I cope well with change. I no longer live in Sweden but I still mourn what happened to my country and what could have been. So much wasted opportunity

by Gud 3y ago

valval 3y ago

Same is happening here in Finland now in full force. It’s scary and fascinating to watch, I hope it gets studied a bit deeper so we know what makes people act like that.

staunton 3y ago
How about "people don't like foreigners and strangers"? Most societies in human history have been that way. Even chimpanzees kill members of other groups by default when they find them alone.
- themitigating 3y ago
  1. Chimps also kill to dominate, is that now an acceptable behavior for people? We aren't animals. 2. If you don't like foreigners you're a bigot and terrible person. Hating someone because of where they are from is illogical because not all people from a specific location act and think the same. Therefore your hatred has no specific valid target.
  - staunton 3y ago
    You misunderstood my comment. I'm not saying anything about what behavior is "acceptable" or endorsing anything. I'm saying that people and animals have been acting that way for a very long time. Tolerance for strangers is more in need of sociological explanation than the opposite. Certainly, the trend towards tolerance exists and is rising over the course of history, which I very much like. It's about asking what the default state is from which society makes "progress". Or are you disputing the historical claim that humans on average have never been more tolerant towards strangers than today?
    - themitigating 3y ago
      I'm saying that people and animals have been acting that way for a very long time So? Just because people have done something for a long time doesn't mean it's right. Or are you disputing the historical claim that humans on average have never been more tolerant towards strangers than today? This seems like it is true but what's the evidence for this claim and why are you asking if I dispute it? Where did I say anything about changes in tolerance over time? Tolerance for strangers is more in need of sociological explanation than the opposite Why? What if humanity over time grows and learns thanks to our ability to store information, like in books. More importantly why do we need an explanation and why does it matter? If you are trying to use the fact that something happened for most of human history then changed recently and that makes it abnormal. Think slavery, rape, woman's right, etc
      - staunton 3y ago
        > So? Just because people have done something for a long time doesn't mean it's right. Like I very explicitly said, I do not think it's right. That's not what I'm talking about. > What if humanity over time grows and learns thanks to our ability to store information, like in books. That's going for an explanation. > why do we need an explanation and why does it matter? The original post I responded to asked for an explanation.
        themitigating 3y ago
        I'm saying that people and animals have been acting that way for a very long time. Tolerance for strangers is more in need of sociological explanation than the opposite. Certainly, the trend towards tolerance exists and is rising over the course of history, which I very much like. It's about asking what the default state is from which society makes "progress". You're asking what the default state is? I assume you mean instincts right? Why does it matter, what's the relevance?

bombolo 3y ago

Oh yes... Sweden. Political party initiated by a literal SS soldier, keeps having to kick out members for nazi salutes and similar stuff, but calling them fascists makes you offended... The same government that wants to revoke citizenships and permanent residence permits. Yup, calling them fascists is an abuse of the word. Hahahaha.

Gud 3y ago
? I intentionally didn’t mention the Sweden Democrats. You were branded a fascist, racist, etc. if you spoke up, no matter your political allegiance. You’re just making my point for me. A majority of Swedes have been opposed to this insanity, not just the Sweden Democrats. Sadly voting for them is the only option for anyone who understands what a disaster this is(unless you do like me, decide to move out).
- bombolo 3y ago
  You seem out of touch with what the government in sweden has been doing so far. I agree that there are big social problems in Sweden. But I don't see how sending Kurds to die in Turkey; and generally blaming every problem that exist on immigrants while doing nothing to address said problems, will solve anything.
  - Gud 3y ago
    No need for ad hominem attacks - I’ve followed Swedish politics all my life. I’ve never argued for sending Kurds to turkey, and I’m not blaming Swedens problems on any immigrants - they are completely self made by self centered so called leaders and a gullible populace who has had little exposure to the outside world. Have a nice day

themitigating 3y ago

Because it can also be true but the comment implies it's only used as an attack.

hef19898 3y ago

Calling out a xenophobic movement for what it is is not a bad thing per se. Don't want to be called a racist or fascist? Easy, don't be one. At the very least, if you are one, don't be offended by being called one...

Gud 3y ago
You can be opposed to mass migration from under developed countries without being a xenophobe(fascist or otherwise) , with vastly different cultural norms. The last 2-3 decades of migration to Sweden has been disastrous and was done against the majority’s will, with gang violence extreme segregation and a diminished social cohesion. Sweden will never be the same
- hef19898 3y ago
  Funny, I remember the days when swedish biker gangs pillaged the cold war era reservist weapon depots to wage their gang wars, using weapons of war. No immigartion was needed back then. But thanks for confirming that most right wing ideology is simply rooted in peoples incapability to cope with change.
  - Gud 3y ago
    The biker wars had few victims, with 11 total deaths, all Nordic countries combined over multiple years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Biker_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Biker_War Last year alone, Sweden had 60 shot dead. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-hits-record-with-60-shot-dead-2022-2022-12-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-hits-record-with... “Strommer said Sweden's sixty shooting deaths this year compared to four in Norway, four in Denmark and two in Finland. The deaths are the tip of an iceberg of violence and organised crime that have put down deep roots in parts of society, Strommer said. Last year, 45 people were shot dead in Sweden. In 2012, the total was 17, according to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention.” I cope well with change. I no longer live in Sweden but I still mourn what happened to my country and what could have been. So much wasted opportunity