4 ms·

There must be a lingua franca and English is likely among the best choices, considering its widespread adoption and relatively low barrier of entry (try Japanes

There must be a lingua franca and English is likely among the best choices, considering its widespread adoption and relatively low barrier of entry (try Japanese or Vietnamese and you will see what I meant). But it is true that there is cost to non-English speakers. Maybe we can lower the standard a little bit? I don't mean broken Engrish but if the sentences make sense and the grammar is correct, maybe that is good enough?

akavi 3y ago
Japanese the language qua language is relatively easy from a language agnostic perspective. Formality levels are tricky, but the phonology is fairly simple (very few "weird" sounds) and the grammar is on the regular side. The writing system on the other hand... IMO the worst used by any major language in the world. Graft a logographic system (already a bad choice to start) from an isolating language onto a highly synthetic verb system, necessitating a whole extra syllabary. Evolve numerous "readings" of each logogram, depending on etymology and history. Then tack on a 2nd syllabary for abstruse historical reasons.
- naniwaduni 3y ago
  > If the seemingly arbitrary and unique assignment of pronunciations to common combinations of Kanji frustrates you—[...]—and leave you wondering why anyone would do such a thing, concluding that Japanese has the worst writing system ever, rest assured that they don't have the worst ever. They just have the worst writing system since the Hittites.
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    Cuneiform signs can be employed in three functions: syllabograms, Akkadograms or Sumerograms. Syllabograms are characters that represent a syllable. Akkadograms and Sumerograms are ideograms originally from the earlier Akkadian or Sumerian orthography respectively, but not intended to be pronounced as in the original language; Sumerograms are mostly ideograms and determiners. ... Thus, the sign GI 𒄀 can be used (and transcribed) in three ways, as the Hittite syllable gi (also ge); in the Akkadian spelling QÈ-RU-UB of the preposition "near" as QÈ, and as the Sumerian ideogram GI for "tube" also in superscript, GI, when used as a determiner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_cuneiform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_cuneiform
goodbyesf 3y ago
> There must be a lingua franca Not true. The period of greatest scientific advancement in human history ( mid-19th to the mid-20th century ) had no lingua franca. Actually, the end of french as a 'lingua franca' in europe in the first half of 1800s can partly be credited with the burgeoning of science ( and other academic fields ) in britain, germany, russia, etc. Just like the ending of latin as 'lingua franca' ( beginning of the 'vulgar' period ) led to the burgeoning of religion, philosophy, literature, etc throughout europe. > Maybe we can lower the standard a little bit? I don't mean broken Engrish but if the sentences make sense and the grammar is correct, maybe that is good enough? Or maybe people should speak their own language and 'do science' in their own language. What's more preferable? Having one billion chinese learn english to study algebra with an english language textbook or translated that one algebra textbook into chinese and have one billion chinese learn algebra in chinese? The dull and boring mono-linguistic and mono-culture world has led to stagnation. The world would be infinitely better off when that changes. When we have actual diversity, not the superficial diversity where we look different but all think and talk the same. Look at the tech world today. Look at just europe alone. How great would it be if europe had a german, spanish, russian, french 'google/apple/microsoft/etc'? Now broaden that view to the arab, persian, chinese, indian, african, etc regions. So much diversity, knowledge, creativity, etc is lost because one group of people want to dominate the world. It's tragic.
- leduyquang753 3y ago
  That said there gotta be some balance though. It is much more effort to translate something into every language that interested people might use, that is, if people who can translate are willing to spend the effort at all. Learning a common language has opened up an enormous realm of knowledge that many other languages can't come close (see for example the English Wikipedia vs. other languages' Wikipedia, both in article count and in the length of each article).
  - kjkjadksj 3y ago
    I’d imagine for most languages people are going to be using for scientific dialog already have pretty robust translation tools. You can probably put a Chinese math paper through google translate and get decent output. This sort of thing could be built into google scholar, maybe even finer tuned for the exact idioms and jargon used by each field in that language.
cubefox 3y ago
> But it is true that there is cost to non-English speakers. Maybe we can lower the standard a little bit? I don't mean broken Engrish but if the sentences make sense and the grammar is correct, maybe that is good enough? We can't demand things like that. If a paper reads like amateur English, reviewers are pretty much guaranteed to turn it down with higher probability, even if the factual quality is somewhat better than of a well-written paper. This is just how the mind works. Like wine from a cheap looking bottle tasting worse than the same wine from an expensive looking bottle.
ghusto 3y ago
> Maybe we can lower the standard a little bit? Lower them more you mean? As a native English speaker having learnt a foreign language, I can tell you that we're pretty goddamn lax in comparison. The English have long since made peace with the fact that their language has been usurped. They're okay with it, and make concessions for foreign language speakers; as long as the meaning is understood, nobody bothers correcting you. Now try speaking French in France, or German in Germany. I don't know about Japanese in Japan, but I imagine it's the same or worse (from what I've heard second hand).

akavi 3y ago

Japanese the language qua language is relatively easy from a language agnostic perspective. Formality levels are tricky, but the phonology is fairly simple (very few "weird" sounds) and the grammar is on the regular side. The writing system on the other hand... IMO the worst used by any major language in the world. Graft a logographic system (already a bad choice to start) from an isolating language onto a highly synthetic verb system, necessitating a whole extra syllabary. Evolve numerous "readings" of each logogram, depending on etymology and history. Then tack on a 2nd syllabary for abstruse historical reasons.

naniwaduni 3y ago
> If the seemingly arbitrary and unique assignment of pronunciations to common combinations of Kanji frustrates you—[...]—and leave you wondering why anyone would do such a thing, concluding that Japanese has the worst writing system ever, rest assured that they don't have the worst ever. They just have the worst writing system since the Hittites.
- resolutebat 3y ago
  Cuneiform signs can be employed in three functions: syllabograms, Akkadograms or Sumerograms. Syllabograms are characters that represent a syllable. Akkadograms and Sumerograms are ideograms originally from the earlier Akkadian or Sumerian orthography respectively, but not intended to be pronounced as in the original language; Sumerograms are mostly ideograms and determiners. ... Thus, the sign GI 𒄀 can be used (and transcribed) in three ways, as the Hittite syllable gi (also ge); in the Akkadian spelling QÈ-RU-UB of the preposition "near" as QÈ, and as the Sumerian ideogram GI for "tube" also in superscript, GI, when used as a determiner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_cuneiform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_cuneiform

goodbyesf 3y ago

> There must be a lingua franca Not true. The period of greatest scientific advancement in human history ( mid-19th to the mid-20th century ) had no lingua franca. Actually, the end of french as a 'lingua franca' in europe in the first half of 1800s can partly be credited with the burgeoning of science ( and other academic fields ) in britain, germany, russia, etc. Just like the ending of latin as 'lingua franca' ( beginning of the 'vulgar' period ) led to the burgeoning of religion, philosophy, literature, etc throughout europe. > Maybe we can lower the standard a little bit? I don't mean broken Engrish but if the sentences make sense and the grammar is correct, maybe that is good enough? Or maybe people should speak their own language and 'do science' in their own language. What's more preferable? Having one billion chinese learn english to study algebra with an english language textbook or translated that one algebra textbook into chinese and have one billion chinese learn algebra in chinese? The dull and boring mono-linguistic and mono-culture world has led to stagnation. The world would be infinitely better off when that changes. When we have actual diversity, not the superficial diversity where we look different but all think and talk the same. Look at the tech world today. Look at just europe alone. How great would it be if europe had a german, spanish, russian, french 'google/apple/microsoft/etc'? Now broaden that view to the arab, persian, chinese, indian, african, etc regions. So much diversity, knowledge, creativity, etc is lost because one group of people want to dominate the world. It's tragic.

leduyquang753 3y ago
That said there gotta be some balance though. It is much more effort to translate something into every language that interested people might use, that is, if people who can translate are willing to spend the effort at all. Learning a common language has opened up an enormous realm of knowledge that many other languages can't come close (see for example the English Wikipedia vs. other languages' Wikipedia, both in article count and in the length of each article).
- kjkjadksj 3y ago
  I’d imagine for most languages people are going to be using for scientific dialog already have pretty robust translation tools. You can probably put a Chinese math paper through google translate and get decent output. This sort of thing could be built into google scholar, maybe even finer tuned for the exact idioms and jargon used by each field in that language.

cubefox 3y ago

> But it is true that there is cost to non-English speakers. Maybe we can lower the standard a little bit? I don't mean broken Engrish but if the sentences make sense and the grammar is correct, maybe that is good enough? We can't demand things like that. If a paper reads like amateur English, reviewers are pretty much guaranteed to turn it down with higher probability, even if the factual quality is somewhat better than of a well-written paper. This is just how the mind works. Like wine from a cheap looking bottle tasting worse than the same wine from an expensive looking bottle.

ghusto 3y ago

> Maybe we can lower the standard a little bit? Lower them more you mean? As a native English speaker having learnt a foreign language, I can tell you that we're pretty goddamn lax in comparison. The English have long since made peace with the fact that their language has been usurped. They're okay with it, and make concessions for foreign language speakers; as long as the meaning is understood, nobody bothers correcting you. Now try speaking French in France, or German in Germany. I don't know about Japanese in Japan, but I imagine it's the same or worse (from what I've heard second hand).