7 ms·

Because that's how it works in other countries, and that means people get less riled up culturally about tax

sidewndr46 3y ago
paying taxes is not a voluntary thing for 90% of America. It gets taken out on your paycheck before you get it, which is your only form of income.
- abathur 3y ago
  I think GP is suggesting that some interests want the process of filing your taxes to be annoying/frustrating/degrading/disruptive to increase anti-tax sentiment. (I.e., most people have already been deprived of the funds for some fraction of the year; what interest is served by making them waste time finding records and jumping through hoops and potentially paying a third party to help them provide the IRS with information that it mostly already has?)
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    I think there's another group of people who want to more closely tie the notion that "government is funded by taxes" to "government spending programs are largely choices in the short-term and entirely choices in the long-term". To that end, I would like taxes to be due about 4 Tuesdays before the Election Day Tuesday. If you want to vote for politicians who are campaigning on spending a lot of taxpayer money for good programs, so be it, but do it with recent memory of having paid your taxes (assuming you are in the slight majority* who pay federal taxes on net). If you want to campaign on spending a given amount of taxpayer money, whether more, the same, or less than today, your campaign should be interpreted close to taxpaying time. I don't want it to be more onerous or annoying to pay taxes. I do want people to recognize that taxes and spending are linked (and frankly, ought to be more closely linked than they are today, IMO). * - which until very recently was a slight minority of households who paid federal taxes on net.
    - RC_ITR 3y ago
      Some interesting points here: >I would like taxes to be due about 4 Tuesdays before the Election Day Tuesday. Most people pay taxes in small increments every 2 weeks then get a refund around tax day, so your plan may not do what you think. >I do want people to recognize that taxes and spending are linked To your own point, they really aren't. [0] >But do it with recent memory of having paid your taxes (assuming you are in the slight majority* who pay federal taxes on net) To add some color on this [1]: But, for the most part, people don’t pay income tax because they have little income. About 60 percent of non-payers make less than $30,000 and another 28 percent make between $30,000 and about $60,000. Of the 72 million households that will pay no federal income tax this year, about 24 million, or roughly one-third, are age 65 or older. [0]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=17dyP https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=17dyP [1]https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/tpc-number-those-who-dont-pay-federal-income-tax-drops-pre-pandemic-levels https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/tpc-number-those-who-...
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        Oh, right. I did skip stating an important step in the plan [so, upvoted]. I would do away with the withholding scheme (perhaps creating a parallel savings mechanism) and force income earners to write a check/do an ACH for their taxes. Under that system, I'm totally fine if people get a $1K refund after writing a check for $15K in taxes withheld. That would still demonstrate the linkage sufficiently to inform their voting choices.
        RC_ITR 3y ago
        Sure, but again to your own point, the share of voting Americans who don't earn income (and therefore pay no taxes) because they are over 65 is already 1/3 and only going to increase.[0] [0]https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/number-of-individuals-who-voted-in-thousands-and-individuals-who-voted-as-a-share-of-the-voter-population-by-age/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/number-of-individu...
- mmcclure 3y ago
  I'm not sure if you're describing something else, but tax withholding is voluntary. You can opt out and choose to pay your estimated taxes as a lump sum, but that also requires a level of budgeting that I'd argue most people don't have the financial literacy/self-control to do effectively.
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    You get penalties and an angry letter from the IRS if you are over a certain dollar amount and don't pay quarterlies.
  - TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
    I did this as a 1099-contractor, since that’s about the only way to do it as a contractor. Paying estimated quarterly taxes four times a year wasn’t bad. I calculated my withholdings, remitted my tax payment through EFTPS, and was never surprised at tax time. I don’t think I ever got a refund or owed when I was doing it myself. I learned that many people who have never contracted before are shocked they have to do this, lost on how it works, and had (then) no good place to go for actionable advice. I found that surprising and kind of sad in a way. We could be doing so much better with financial literacy.
  - icouldntresist 3y ago
    This brings something up which I don't understand about US tax code. Why can't I be taxed on income which I've already earned instead of having to estimate to within ~5% (IIRC) what I should earn? I'm sure there are reasons for this, but this seems broken.
    - nulbyte 3y ago
      I think this is largely do to having a progressive and conplicated tax system. If work one job, earn salary, don't receive a variable bonus, and work the whole year at the same rate, it's easy enough to calculate. But, get a raise, take a pay cut, find a new job, start or stop a second job, or a third, or fourth, get paid hourly, get sick, take time off to care for a sick family member, have a kid, go back to school, graduate, get married, get divorced, get a mortgage, pay down your mortgage, ... There are all sorts of scenarios that could change your tax situation on both the federal and state level, making it difficult to calculate how much you would owe up front. What it really boils down to is our tax codes suck, and too many rich folk are keen on keeping it that way.
voisin 3y ago
I don’t think being sent a statement of account is what causes other nations’ countries to not get riled up culturally about tax. To the extent that a nation’s populace doesn’t get riled up about the taxes they pay, I think it is from a feeling of (a) representation and (b) the tax dollars being spent effectively. In the US there is a feeling of lacking representation on both sides, which I suspect is due to corporate lobbying and the culture wars, and I think a feeling of ineffective spending, again I think due to lobbying, and also pork barrel projects. I think the answer is to remove corporate lobbying and limit campaign spending.
newsyish 3y ago
Agree, as an American now living/working overseas, it is mind blowing how easy it has been to deal with taxes in my foreign country - I don't have to do anything. Taxes are withheld out of my paycheck, and this foreign government sends me a letter at the end of the year telling me how much I paid. I don't have to submit anything. So much easier. Except I have to still have to spend $ to Turbotax efile an American IRS return to tell the IRS I owe no taxes. How dumb is that.
- midoridensha 3y ago
  Yep, exact same here. It's ridiculous.
- happymellon 3y ago
  My spouse has the same issue. Except that a lot of tax filing companies require a bank account with an American address, so it's always an even bigger hassle.
Projectiboga 3y ago
Our tax system covers a lot more types of 'income' than most other countries. The USA taxes you on all earning worldwide, but they don't see anything out side of the US. Now since 1993 you are supposed to declare any foreign bank accounts too. And there are many still cash based businesses that they can't easily estimate your earnings for. It is crappy, and it is also part of lobbying to keep in complex. Both accountants, lawyers and for the lower classes the tax preparation companies all want complexity.
- kelnos 3y ago
  That kinda doesn't matter. Those things account for a single-digit (at most) percent of all taxpayers. People with complicated tax situations will have to do more work to pay taxes. But well over 50% of US taxpayers could make use of a simpler, IRS-provided system wherein they just get sent a bill and can choose to pay or contest.
- sys_64738 3y ago
  This doesn't impact most people in the USA. A simple system offered for free by the IRS is good enough for 99% of folks. If you have a complex situation then that's your problem to pay for. Not mine.

paying taxes is not a voluntary thing for 90% of America. It gets taken out on your paycheck before you get it, which is your only form of income.

abathur 3y ago
I think GP is suggesting that some interests want the process of filing your taxes to be annoying/frustrating/degrading/disruptive to increase anti-tax sentiment. (I.e., most people have already been deprived of the funds for some fraction of the year; what interest is served by making them waste time finding records and jumping through hoops and potentially paying a third party to help them provide the IRS with information that it mostly already has?)
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I think there's another group of people who want to more closely tie the notion that "government is funded by taxes" to "government spending programs are largely choices in the short-term and entirely choices in the long-term". To that end, I would like taxes to be due about 4 Tuesdays before the Election Day Tuesday. If you want to vote for politicians who are campaigning on spending a lot of taxpayer money for good programs, so be it, but do it with recent memory of having paid your taxes (assuming you are in the slight majority* who pay federal taxes on net). If you want to campaign on spending a given amount of taxpayer money, whether more, the same, or less than today, your campaign should be interpreted close to taxpaying time. I don't want it to be more onerous or annoying to pay taxes. I do want people to recognize that taxes and spending are linked (and frankly, ought to be more closely linked than they are today, IMO). * - which until very recently was a slight minority of households who paid federal taxes on net.
  - RC_ITR 3y ago
    Some interesting points here: >I would like taxes to be due about 4 Tuesdays before the Election Day Tuesday. Most people pay taxes in small increments every 2 weeks then get a refund around tax day, so your plan may not do what you think. >I do want people to recognize that taxes and spending are linked To your own point, they really aren't. [0] >But do it with recent memory of having paid your taxes (assuming you are in the slight majority* who pay federal taxes on net) To add some color on this [1]: But, for the most part, people don’t pay income tax because they have little income. About 60 percent of non-payers make less than $30,000 and another 28 percent make between $30,000 and about $60,000. Of the 72 million households that will pay no federal income tax this year, about 24 million, or roughly one-third, are age 65 or older. [0]https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=17dyP https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=17dyP [1]https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/tpc-number-those-who-dont-pay-federal-income-tax-drops-pre-pandemic-levels https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/tpc-number-those-who-...
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      Oh, right. I did skip stating an important step in the plan [so, upvoted]. I would do away with the withholding scheme (perhaps creating a parallel savings mechanism) and force income earners to write a check/do an ACH for their taxes. Under that system, I'm totally fine if people get a $1K refund after writing a check for $15K in taxes withheld. That would still demonstrate the linkage sufficiently to inform their voting choices.
      - RC_ITR 3y ago
        Sure, but again to your own point, the share of voting Americans who don't earn income (and therefore pay no taxes) because they are over 65 is already 1/3 and only going to increase.[0] [0]https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/number-of-individuals-who-voted-in-thousands-and-individuals-who-voted-as-a-share-of-the-voter-population-by-age/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/number-of-individu...
mmcclure 3y ago
I'm not sure if you're describing something else, but tax withholding is voluntary. You can opt out and choose to pay your estimated taxes as a lump sum, but that also requires a level of budgeting that I'd argue most people don't have the financial literacy/self-control to do effectively.
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  You get penalties and an angry letter from the IRS if you are over a certain dollar amount and don't pay quarterlies.
- TheNewsIsHere 3y ago
  I did this as a 1099-contractor, since that’s about the only way to do it as a contractor. Paying estimated quarterly taxes four times a year wasn’t bad. I calculated my withholdings, remitted my tax payment through EFTPS, and was never surprised at tax time. I don’t think I ever got a refund or owed when I was doing it myself. I learned that many people who have never contracted before are shocked they have to do this, lost on how it works, and had (then) no good place to go for actionable advice. I found that surprising and kind of sad in a way. We could be doing so much better with financial literacy.
- icouldntresist 3y ago
  This brings something up which I don't understand about US tax code. Why can't I be taxed on income which I've already earned instead of having to estimate to within ~5% (IIRC) what I should earn? I'm sure there are reasons for this, but this seems broken.
  - nulbyte 3y ago
    I think this is largely do to having a progressive and conplicated tax system. If work one job, earn salary, don't receive a variable bonus, and work the whole year at the same rate, it's easy enough to calculate. But, get a raise, take a pay cut, find a new job, start or stop a second job, or a third, or fourth, get paid hourly, get sick, take time off to care for a sick family member, have a kid, go back to school, graduate, get married, get divorced, get a mortgage, pay down your mortgage, ... There are all sorts of scenarios that could change your tax situation on both the federal and state level, making it difficult to calculate how much you would owe up front. What it really boils down to is our tax codes suck, and too many rich folk are keen on keeping it that way.

voisin 3y ago

I don’t think being sent a statement of account is what causes other nations’ countries to not get riled up culturally about tax. To the extent that a nation’s populace doesn’t get riled up about the taxes they pay, I think it is from a feeling of (a) representation and (b) the tax dollars being spent effectively. In the US there is a feeling of lacking representation on both sides, which I suspect is due to corporate lobbying and the culture wars, and I think a feeling of ineffective spending, again I think due to lobbying, and also pork barrel projects. I think the answer is to remove corporate lobbying and limit campaign spending.

newsyish 3y ago

Agree, as an American now living/working overseas, it is mind blowing how easy it has been to deal with taxes in my foreign country - I don't have to do anything. Taxes are withheld out of my paycheck, and this foreign government sends me a letter at the end of the year telling me how much I paid. I don't have to submit anything. So much easier. Except I have to still have to spend $ to Turbotax efile an American IRS return to tell the IRS I owe no taxes. How dumb is that.

midoridensha 3y ago
Yep, exact same here. It's ridiculous.
happymellon 3y ago
My spouse has the same issue. Except that a lot of tax filing companies require a bank account with an American address, so it's always an even bigger hassle.

Projectiboga 3y ago

Our tax system covers a lot more types of 'income' than most other countries. The USA taxes you on all earning worldwide, but they don't see anything out side of the US. Now since 1993 you are supposed to declare any foreign bank accounts too. And there are many still cash based businesses that they can't easily estimate your earnings for. It is crappy, and it is also part of lobbying to keep in complex. Both accountants, lawyers and for the lower classes the tax preparation companies all want complexity.

kelnos 3y ago
That kinda doesn't matter. Those things account for a single-digit (at most) percent of all taxpayers. People with complicated tax situations will have to do more work to pay taxes. But well over 50% of US taxpayers could make use of a simpler, IRS-provided system wherein they just get sent a bill and can choose to pay or contest.
sys_64738 3y ago
This doesn't impact most people in the USA. A simple system offered for free by the IRS is good enough for 99% of folks. If you have a complex situation then that's your problem to pay for. Not mine.