5 ms·

If you make a mistake like this, where you owe a debt that can never be repaid, I think we need some social mechanism where you can do your best to make amends

If you make a mistake like this, where you owe a debt that can never be repaid, I think we need some social mechanism where you can do your best to make amends and get some measure of closure. This probably should follow you around forever, but maybe it shouldn't dominate every moment of the rest of your life.

mrguyorama 3y ago
No, victims are not obligated to forgive you and neither is society. Sometimes people do bad things that cannot be undone and should not be forgotten. Sometimes that person doing the bad thing is you. Even if you didn't intend to harm someone, even if you did nothing wrong, even if you followed best known procedures and were fully attentive, you can still cause irreparable harm to someone else, and we shouldn't just pretend that's okay as some coping strategy. Sometimes you hurt someone and you should feel bad about that. Deal with it. It's a part of life to be an imperfect human and this should help you keep in mind that EVERYONE IS AN IMPERFECT HUMAN.
- bittercynic 3y ago
  Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems like we're in agreement, no?
  - bittercynic 3y ago
    Replying to myself - I didn't understand the context of this conversation before, but I just read Mark Wahlberg's wikipedia page. Yikes. Seems like the guy was (and is?) a violent, hateful, lunatic. Something smells very off about one of his victims releasing a public statement that he has forgiven Mark. I was not intending to argue that he should be pardoned.
- blq10 3y ago
  We do that, it's called imprisoning people for a very long time. This is generally unpopular among liberal and left leaning spaces, and is only marginally popular in right leaning ones.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    My stance says nothing about punishment, imprisonment, or retribution, and is more about recognizing that there are things humans can do to each other that are irreversibly damaging, and that is not an okay thing to do, and recognizing that you have caused someone irreparable harm that will never be "fixed" is the emotionally mature stance. I'm not even saying you should wake up every day with a weight on your shoulders for killing someone, but rather it's something you should keep in mind, and victims owe nothing to the people that harmed them, and I do not believe expecting victims to tell people doing bad things "everything is okay" is beneficial to society. Being without forgiveness from those you harmed is not equivalent in any way to being in prison for life.
brightlancer 3y ago
> I think we need some social mechanism where you can do your best to make amends and get some measure of closure. It's called prison. > This probably should follow you around forever, but maybe it shouldn't dominate every moment of the rest of your life. Prison (and convictions generally) shouldn't follow folks forever because it disincentivizes rehabilitation, it incentivizes recidivism, it labels someone based upon behavior 20 years ago but not necessarily since, etc. The victims are not morally obligated to forgive anyone. As a society, it's more beneficial to legally and morally treat offenders as having paid their sentence.
- WolfeReader 3y ago
  >> I think we need some social mechanism where you can do your best to make amends and get some measure of closure. > It's called prison. Please explain how prison enables someone to make amends and get a sense of closure.
- lr4444lr 3y ago
  It's absolutely impossible for prison to morally absolve prisoners: most do not enter there willingly (i.e., they plead not guilty) and their entire freedom to do anything, much less make amends, is stripped away. Rehabilitation does nothing for the flesh and blood victim they're in there for hurting.
  - theoriginaldog 3y ago
    Of course rehabilitation does nothing for the victim, its a process that is concerned about the offender.
  - bhelkey 3y ago
    > most do not enter there willingly (i.e., they plead not guilty) The idea that most incarcerated people pled not guilty, were tried and found guilty, and are now incarcerated is not true in the US. Many of incarcerated are still awaiting trial. The DOJ reports that a quarter of those in US jail and prison are awaiting trial [1]. I suspect most of those cannot afford bail. In terms of after trial, npr reports, "98% of criminal cases in the federal courts end with a plea bargain" [2]. [1] https://www.ojp.gov/files/archives/pressreleases/2022/us-jail-population-increased-while-prison-population-decreased-2021#:~:text=At%20midyear%202021%2C%2029%25%20of,in%20jail%20for%20other%20reasons https://www.ojp.gov/files/archives/pressreleases/2022/us-jai.... [2] https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-criminal-cases-justice#:~:text=In%20any%20given%20year%2C%2098,from%20the%20American%20Bar%20Association https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-crim....
mike_hock 3y ago
I'm gonna be a bitter cynic here and say that blindness also dominates every moment of the rest of the victim's life, so why shouldn't the perpetrator suffer the same fate?
- theoriginaldog 3y ago
  The only place where you find this mirror Talion punishment today are islamistic countries that implement the sharia. Do you really think they are paragons of fair justice?
- hypertele-Xii 3y ago
  Because "an eye for an eye" leaves everyone blind.
civilitty 3y ago
He’s an A-list actor who makes tens of millions of dollars per film. He can make what most of us would consider “fuck you money” in the span of a few months. By no means does it dominate his life. I dont think he shows real contrition either. After that Times article he backpedaled on the pardon request and told an interviewer months later that he was “pushed into it.”

mrguyorama 3y ago

No, victims are not obligated to forgive you and neither is society. Sometimes people do bad things that cannot be undone and should not be forgotten. Sometimes that person doing the bad thing is you. Even if you didn't intend to harm someone, even if you did nothing wrong, even if you followed best known procedures and were fully attentive, you can still cause irreparable harm to someone else, and we shouldn't just pretend that's okay as some coping strategy. Sometimes you hurt someone and you should feel bad about that. Deal with it. It's a part of life to be an imperfect human and this should help you keep in mind that EVERYONE IS AN IMPERFECT HUMAN.

bittercynic 3y ago
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems like we're in agreement, no?
- bittercynic 3y ago
  Replying to myself - I didn't understand the context of this conversation before, but I just read Mark Wahlberg's wikipedia page. Yikes. Seems like the guy was (and is?) a violent, hateful, lunatic. Something smells very off about one of his victims releasing a public statement that he has forgiven Mark. I was not intending to argue that he should be pardoned.
blq10 3y ago
We do that, it's called imprisoning people for a very long time. This is generally unpopular among liberal and left leaning spaces, and is only marginally popular in right leaning ones.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  My stance says nothing about punishment, imprisonment, or retribution, and is more about recognizing that there are things humans can do to each other that are irreversibly damaging, and that is not an okay thing to do, and recognizing that you have caused someone irreparable harm that will never be "fixed" is the emotionally mature stance. I'm not even saying you should wake up every day with a weight on your shoulders for killing someone, but rather it's something you should keep in mind, and victims owe nothing to the people that harmed them, and I do not believe expecting victims to tell people doing bad things "everything is okay" is beneficial to society. Being without forgiveness from those you harmed is not equivalent in any way to being in prison for life.

brightlancer 3y ago

> I think we need some social mechanism where you can do your best to make amends and get some measure of closure. It's called prison. > This probably should follow you around forever, but maybe it shouldn't dominate every moment of the rest of your life. Prison (and convictions generally) shouldn't follow folks forever because it disincentivizes rehabilitation, it incentivizes recidivism, it labels someone based upon behavior 20 years ago but not necessarily since, etc. The victims are not morally obligated to forgive anyone. As a society, it's more beneficial to legally and morally treat offenders as having paid their sentence.

WolfeReader 3y ago
>> I think we need some social mechanism where you can do your best to make amends and get some measure of closure. > It's called prison. Please explain how prison enables someone to make amends and get a sense of closure.
lr4444lr 3y ago
It's absolutely impossible for prison to morally absolve prisoners: most do not enter there willingly (i.e., they plead not guilty) and their entire freedom to do anything, much less make amends, is stripped away. Rehabilitation does nothing for the flesh and blood victim they're in there for hurting.
- theoriginaldog 3y ago
  Of course rehabilitation does nothing for the victim, its a process that is concerned about the offender.
- bhelkey 3y ago
  > most do not enter there willingly (i.e., they plead not guilty) The idea that most incarcerated people pled not guilty, were tried and found guilty, and are now incarcerated is not true in the US. Many of incarcerated are still awaiting trial. The DOJ reports that a quarter of those in US jail and prison are awaiting trial [1]. I suspect most of those cannot afford bail. In terms of after trial, npr reports, "98% of criminal cases in the federal courts end with a plea bargain" [2]. [1] https://www.ojp.gov/files/archives/pressreleases/2022/us-jail-population-increased-while-prison-population-decreased-2021#:~:text=At%20midyear%202021%2C%2029%25%20of,in%20jail%20for%20other%20reasons https://www.ojp.gov/files/archives/pressreleases/2022/us-jai.... [2] https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-criminal-cases-justice#:~:text=In%20any%20given%20year%2C%2098,from%20the%20American%20Bar%20Association https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-crim....

mike_hock 3y ago

I'm gonna be a bitter cynic here and say that blindness also dominates every moment of the rest of the victim's life, so why shouldn't the perpetrator suffer the same fate?

theoriginaldog 3y ago
The only place where you find this mirror Talion punishment today are islamistic countries that implement the sharia. Do you really think they are paragons of fair justice?
hypertele-Xii 3y ago
Because "an eye for an eye" leaves everyone blind.

civilitty 3y ago

He’s an A-list actor who makes tens of millions of dollars per film. He can make what most of us would consider “fuck you money” in the span of a few months. By no means does it dominate his life. I dont think he shows real contrition either. After that Times article he backpedaled on the pardon request and told an interviewer months later that he was “pushed into it.”