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> I don't understand why ~FedNow and CBDC~ BIG BROTHER are such a big issue in the US. Fixed this for you. I don't really want a gigantic federal agency havin

> I don't understand why ~FedNow and CBDC~ BIG BROTHER are such a big issue in the US. Fixed this for you. I don't really want a gigantic federal agency having insight into every financial transaction I make. Hard, fucking, pass.

chimeracoder 3y ago
> I don't really want a gigantic federal agency having insight into every financial transaction I make. Hard, fucking, pass. If that's the case, I have bad news for you about the banking system of literally every developed country.
- bboygravity 3y ago
  Ever heard of cash? I can buy an icecream anywhere in the world without anybody tracking me. Even with the "wrong" political opinion (even if I would be a trucker in Canada during certain protests). I cannot do that with CBDC. No. CBDC (aka: the ultimate totalitarian's dream) is not the same as the current banking system, despite the current banking system also being very horrible for privacy. * All of the above assuming that cash will be banned and CBDC will be mandatory for everybody.
  - NamTaf 3y ago
    That's a very load-bearing assumption.
    - hellojesus 3y ago
      Not as load bearing when you look at the legal limits of cash transactions in countries in Europe. Also not so load bearing when you consider the unconstitutional civil asset forfeiture of the current US.
  - ke88y 3y ago
    > I can buy an icecream anywhere in the world without anybody tracking me. No you can't. Companies like OpenEye and Deep Sentinel offer facial recognition solutions that are targeted at loss-prevention, and these systems are commonplace in the USA. Facial recognition-based consumer analytics systems are also available. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a pint of ice cream that you can buy without having a camera pointed at your face. Even the little stand at the beach in the state park near my old place had a camera, and I didn't even have real LTE coverage there. Privacy comes only from the force of law; not the other way around. Anyways, the whole conversation is a red herring. This is a replacement for ACH, which already exists, and there isn't substantively more information sharing between banks and governments than already exists.
    - amflare 3y ago
      So because malicious parties can track us via other means, we should just allow them to start doing it (even more) through our financial history? Anyways, it's not (fully) about information sharing. It's about control. It's the difference between read access and read/write access.
      - ke88y 3y ago
        FedNow doesn't allow any more or less tracking than what's already possible through the Fed's visibility into ACH. So for the purposes of FedNow the entire conversation is off-topic. Anyways, you missed the point. The anti-new-technology and anti-gov-technology response to privacy and control is misguided. Corporations will fuck you, left unchecked, and governments will fuck you through corporations. There is no technical solution to political problems, and physical cash vs FedNow vs digital currency is a suite of technical solutions. Trying to solve a political problem by eliminating technology is literally the same thing as trying to solve political problems with technology. The fallacy is in focusing on technology where the actual problem is political. The problem is political and needs to be treated as such. The solution is building and maintaining political consensus in favor of strong privacy and personal property rights, not carrying around a billfold full of physical cash.
  - kredd 3y ago
    The reality is, supermajority (including me) of people prefer not using cash. Especially up here in the North. Can’t even recall to ever pulling some out other than some casino entertainment night. I understand all the “freedom” (or whatever one might call it) I’m losing, but the positive sides are much better (never have to care about losing my wallet, much faster transactions, convenience and etc.). Sure, sounds bad on paper, but I haven’t felt any negatives in 10+ years, especially when in practice makes my life easier.
    - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
      >The reality is, supermajority (including me) of people prefer not using cash. Especially up here in the North. Unfortunately, in my experience, I'd have to agree with you on that. But it also brings to mind a relevant Samuel Adams quote: “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
itake 3y ago
Just wondering, but how is this different from our current system where judges can approve search warrants and companies have to comply? Are you think they won’t need search warrants?
- hellojesus 3y ago
  Cash isn't recordable in the same way. I don't provide my id with the transaction when making cash purchases.
  - itake 3y ago
    I don't think this service is replacing cash payments unless I am missing something?
    - hellojesus 3y ago
      You are correct. I was thinking cdbc not fednow.
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      It is a step, a big one, to their "dream" of a "cashless society" that we have been on for decades.
- amflare 3y ago
  This is the difference between the government needing a search warrant and having to come to your house, and them needing a search warrant but a law enforcement officer already living in your house. Sure, they still "need a warrant", but that doesn't make the situation acceptable.
  - itake 3y ago
    Do you think private unregulated businesses (CashApp, Venmo, etc.) that this is trying to replace are any better? These companies just sell your transaction data to the highest bidder, no warrant needed.
Analemma_ 3y ago
Are you under the impression that ACH, the thing FedNow is replacing, is free from government influence? This is what's bizarre to me about the FedNow hysteria. It's not a government system replacing a private market system. It's a government system replacing an older, worse government system. It's like having a panic attack because the Federal Reserve is updating their PCs to from Windows XP to Windows 10.
- dylanlacom 3y ago
  Because Nacha (and ACH) is explicitly not a government system
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    ACH involves the Federal Reserve Bank in every transfer. FedNow involves the Federal Reserve Bank in every transfer.
    - biesnecker 3y ago
      To be fair only about half of US ACH traffic flows through the Fed (the other half goes through the Clearing House Payments Company), but the Fed is very much involved (and a critical component of) the ACH network, even if the system is not explicitly a government one.
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  - delfinom 3y ago
    Nacha governs the ACH network and does not operate anything. The actual processing is split between the Fed and a company called Clearing House.
kelnos 3y ago
Ignoring the fact that FedNow doesn't change much in this regard... I'm torn on this. Visa, MasterCard, Venmo (aka PayPal), etc. all know about large subsets of my transactions, and they go and sell my personal data to other companies in sleazy ways to cover their costs. Is that better or worse than the government knowing all this stuff? Sure, the government can also legally use force against me and deprive me of my freedom and possessions, and might pervert my transaction history into justifying doing bad things to me. But that's a risk, not a certainty. Private companies selling my data and using it in nefarious ways is a certainty.
- just-ok 3y ago
  Can’t the government just buy this data from them, anyway?
  - delfinom 3y ago
    They can and do. The government doesn't need a warrant to buy data from a databroker selling your information wholesale.
- pas 3y ago
  don't forget SARs to FinCEN and other AML requirements the government already knows.
  - JakeAl 3y ago
    It's not about KNOWING, it's about CONTROLLING. The concern is they can shut off your ability to make transactions if you don't cooperate with whatever their agenda is at any given moment, like what the truckers in Canada protesting vax mandates experienced.
    - pas 3y ago
      in effect the requirement to file these activity reports leads to banks simply requesting a lot of data from clients (contracts, trading data, invoices), and if you can't convince them, they'll eventually close your account. so you go to a different bank. their compliance department eventually also starts asking questions, and so on. the freezing of accounts related to the "Freedom Convoy" is quite different, as it was an exercise of emergency powers. the Trudeau admin could have ordered gas stations to not sell fuel to them, or Visa/MasterCard to not process certain cards, or anything similarly extraordinary.
patmorgan23 3y ago
You know they already do right? If you pay or get paid by direct deposit or check those all run through the fed.
sMarsIntruder 3y ago
Seems to me people is failing to understand what CBDCs will bring, especially even more “bad money” and economic slavery caused by “incentives” to spend. But the list goes on..
callalex 3y ago
Please explain to me what FedNow changes compared to the current ACH system in regards to government recording of transactions? Please explain to me how FedNow prevents cash transactions from occurring, or otherwise justify your statement “every financial transaction I make”?

chimeracoder 3y ago

> I don't really want a gigantic federal agency having insight into every financial transaction I make. Hard, fucking, pass. If that's the case, I have bad news for you about the banking system of literally every developed country.

bboygravity 3y ago
Ever heard of cash? I can buy an icecream anywhere in the world without anybody tracking me. Even with the "wrong" political opinion (even if I would be a trucker in Canada during certain protests). I cannot do that with CBDC. No. CBDC (aka: the ultimate totalitarian's dream) is not the same as the current banking system, despite the current banking system also being very horrible for privacy. * All of the above assuming that cash will be banned and CBDC will be mandatory for everybody.
- NamTaf 3y ago
  That's a very load-bearing assumption.
  - hellojesus 3y ago
    Not as load bearing when you look at the legal limits of cash transactions in countries in Europe. Also not so load bearing when you consider the unconstitutional civil asset forfeiture of the current US.
- ke88y 3y ago
  > I can buy an icecream anywhere in the world without anybody tracking me. No you can't. Companies like OpenEye and Deep Sentinel offer facial recognition solutions that are targeted at loss-prevention, and these systems are commonplace in the USA. Facial recognition-based consumer analytics systems are also available. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a pint of ice cream that you can buy without having a camera pointed at your face. Even the little stand at the beach in the state park near my old place had a camera, and I didn't even have real LTE coverage there. Privacy comes only from the force of law; not the other way around. Anyways, the whole conversation is a red herring. This is a replacement for ACH, which already exists, and there isn't substantively more information sharing between banks and governments than already exists.
  - amflare 3y ago
    So because malicious parties can track us via other means, we should just allow them to start doing it (even more) through our financial history? Anyways, it's not (fully) about information sharing. It's about control. It's the difference between read access and read/write access.
    - ke88y 3y ago
      FedNow doesn't allow any more or less tracking than what's already possible through the Fed's visibility into ACH. So for the purposes of FedNow the entire conversation is off-topic. Anyways, you missed the point. The anti-new-technology and anti-gov-technology response to privacy and control is misguided. Corporations will fuck you, left unchecked, and governments will fuck you through corporations. There is no technical solution to political problems, and physical cash vs FedNow vs digital currency is a suite of technical solutions. Trying to solve a political problem by eliminating technology is literally the same thing as trying to solve political problems with technology. The fallacy is in focusing on technology where the actual problem is political. The problem is political and needs to be treated as such. The solution is building and maintaining political consensus in favor of strong privacy and personal property rights, not carrying around a billfold full of physical cash.
- kredd 3y ago
  The reality is, supermajority (including me) of people prefer not using cash. Especially up here in the North. Can’t even recall to ever pulling some out other than some casino entertainment night. I understand all the “freedom” (or whatever one might call it) I’m losing, but the positive sides are much better (never have to care about losing my wallet, much faster transactions, convenience and etc.). Sure, sounds bad on paper, but I haven’t felt any negatives in 10+ years, especially when in practice makes my life easier.
  - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
    >The reality is, supermajority (including me) of people prefer not using cash. Especially up here in the North. Unfortunately, in my experience, I'd have to agree with you on that. But it also brings to mind a relevant Samuel Adams quote: “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

itake 3y ago

Just wondering, but how is this different from our current system where judges can approve search warrants and companies have to comply? Are you think they won’t need search warrants?

hellojesus 3y ago
Cash isn't recordable in the same way. I don't provide my id with the transaction when making cash purchases.
- itake 3y ago
  I don't think this service is replacing cash payments unless I am missing something?
  - hellojesus 3y ago
    You are correct. I was thinking cdbc not fednow.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    It is a step, a big one, to their "dream" of a "cashless society" that we have been on for decades.
amflare 3y ago
This is the difference between the government needing a search warrant and having to come to your house, and them needing a search warrant but a law enforcement officer already living in your house. Sure, they still "need a warrant", but that doesn't make the situation acceptable.
- itake 3y ago
  Do you think private unregulated businesses (CashApp, Venmo, etc.) that this is trying to replace are any better? These companies just sell your transaction data to the highest bidder, no warrant needed.

Analemma_ 3y ago

Are you under the impression that ACH, the thing FedNow is replacing, is free from government influence? This is what's bizarre to me about the FedNow hysteria. It's not a government system replacing a private market system. It's a government system replacing an older, worse government system. It's like having a panic attack because the Federal Reserve is updating their PCs to from Windows XP to Windows 10.

dylanlacom 3y ago
Because Nacha (and ACH) is explicitly not a government system
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  ACH involves the Federal Reserve Bank in every transfer. FedNow involves the Federal Reserve Bank in every transfer.
  - biesnecker 3y ago
    To be fair only about half of US ACH traffic flows through the Fed (the other half goes through the Clearing House Payments Company), but the Fed is very much involved (and a critical component of) the ACH network, even if the system is not explicitly a government one.
  - deleted 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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- delfinom 3y ago
  Nacha governs the ACH network and does not operate anything. The actual processing is split between the Fed and a company called Clearing House.

kelnos 3y ago

Ignoring the fact that FedNow doesn't change much in this regard... I'm torn on this. Visa, MasterCard, Venmo (aka PayPal), etc. all know about large subsets of my transactions, and they go and sell my personal data to other companies in sleazy ways to cover their costs. Is that better or worse than the government knowing all this stuff? Sure, the government can also legally use force against me and deprive me of my freedom and possessions, and might pervert my transaction history into justifying doing bad things to me. But that's a risk, not a certainty. Private companies selling my data and using it in nefarious ways is a certainty.

just-ok 3y ago
Can’t the government just buy this data from them, anyway?
- delfinom 3y ago
  They can and do. The government doesn't need a warrant to buy data from a databroker selling your information wholesale.
pas 3y ago
don't forget SARs to FinCEN and other AML requirements the government already knows.
- JakeAl 3y ago
  It's not about KNOWING, it's about CONTROLLING. The concern is they can shut off your ability to make transactions if you don't cooperate with whatever their agenda is at any given moment, like what the truckers in Canada protesting vax mandates experienced.
  - pas 3y ago
    in effect the requirement to file these activity reports leads to banks simply requesting a lot of data from clients (contracts, trading data, invoices), and if you can't convince them, they'll eventually close your account. so you go to a different bank. their compliance department eventually also starts asking questions, and so on. the freezing of accounts related to the "Freedom Convoy" is quite different, as it was an exercise of emergency powers. the Trudeau admin could have ordered gas stations to not sell fuel to them, or Visa/MasterCard to not process certain cards, or anything similarly extraordinary.

patmorgan23 3y ago

You know they already do right? If you pay or get paid by direct deposit or check those all run through the fed.

sMarsIntruder 3y ago

Seems to me people is failing to understand what CBDCs will bring, especially even more “bad money” and economic slavery caused by “incentives” to spend. But the list goes on..

callalex 3y ago

Please explain to me what FedNow changes compared to the current ACH system in regards to government recording of transactions? Please explain to me how FedNow prevents cash transactions from occurring, or otherwise justify your statement “every financial transaction I make”?