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It's a slow-motion siege. I frankly hope America gets real about drugs- treat their use and presence as a given, decriminalize them, regulate them like alcohol

It's a slow-motion siege. I frankly hope America gets real about drugs- treat their use and presence as a given, decriminalize them, regulate them like alcohol and marijuana, render drugs a public health issue and not just a way to fill prisons, and put this town out of business.

MarkMarine 3y ago
+1 to that. I worry it’s not possible because drug war allows political posturing that goes back from Nixon and hippies and the southern strategy, to the current talk about “inner cities” and Chicago, it’s all coded language because they can’t say what they want to say, but people who know to listen for it hear the words. The stick hasn’t been working for anyone except the private prison investors. We should do exactly what you’re saying. I fear the unfortunate truth is that even those measures wouldn’t be enough, we need to fix the push toward this need to escape. Something like the changes you listed, and the new deal era public works projects paying a legit middle class wage.
gumby 3y ago
It's notable to look to the experience of Portugal, recently discussed on HN, in fact. Their policy of decriminalizing all drug use was successful for over a decade, until they privatized part of it. Would the US do this in a sensible fashion, or in a half-assed "public-private partnership" fashion? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36638752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36638752
Dig1t 3y ago
It seems like we’re screwed either way. Reading and watching videos about Portugal, it does not look like it’s going very well. It seems like the experiment to decriminalize drugs there started out going pretty well but has turned ugly in recent years. idk what we can possibly do. Drugs are already effectively decriminalized in coastal cities anyway and it doesn’t look like it’s doing good things for the population.
- wellthisisgreat 3y ago
  I read that Portugal derailed the program itself, underfunded and privatized it and it’s a shadow of what it was when it started. I imagine it’s important to support the drug infrastructure so to speak - support for addicts, non-police-centric ways of dealing with the potential addicts etc. drugs are the devil, but they do come with their share of problems, which you can’t expect to just vanish upon legalizaton. Government/ society gotta put in an effort comparable at least to that of the anti-tobacco etc.
mikrl 3y ago
It seems the liberalization approach is failing in a few places. Part of me knows that it’s because only the most surface level feel good things are being done, and we are just helping addicts stay addicts (and alive!) instead of treating them. On the other hand, I’m not holding my breath for “our current approach is failing, we need more of it” to get ANY political traction. Not these days.
bufferoverflow 3y ago
Portugal tried it, and the number of addicts skyrocketed. Some drugs are just so much more addicting than alcohol. I quit drinking a few years ago without any side effects. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-drugs-decriminalization-heroin-crack/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-dru...
cameldrv 3y ago
IMO this will not work. Serious drugs are absolutely a public health issue, and some public health issues have to be solved through civil and criminal laws. Drugs have to be approved by the FDA to be allowed to be sold, and the ultimate enforcement for this is civil and criminal law. If we regulated fentanyl and meth like alcohol, we would have an absolutely enormous population of addicts, and even in a legal, regulated market, those addicts would resort to crime to pay for drugs. Perhaps there is a better solution, but the best solution I know if is simply to much more aggressively enforce drug laws. Dealers of serious drugs should be facing major jail time, and even personal possession should be punished with significant jail time.
- mplewis9z 3y ago
  Ah yes, the “trust me, this time the war on drugs will totally work” response.
  - thegrim33 3y ago
    How do you explain all of the first world asian countries where drugs are insanely illegal, there very much have a massive war on drugs, and yet they have an amazing quality of life there without meth head zombies roaming the streets? Where it's apparent their war on drugs has very much worked?
    - jjav 3y ago
      > Where it's apparent their war on drugs has very much worked? I'd bet (but hopefully someone can link to research) that there are many contributing factors for why vast hordes of people don't feel the need to numb themselves to death with drugs in those locations? Very few people voluntarily want to become addicts if they are having a happy fulfilling life. So why are there so many people in the US who see no other road to take?
      - cameldrv 3y ago
        There are plenty of people in these countries that have very difficult lives that might be prone to drug addiction if drugs were available, but they're not, so they aren't.
lastofus 3y ago
Drug use was decriminalized in Portland OR by ballot measure, and it is not going well. Open air drug use, coupled with an increase in violence and crime have made being in large parts of downtown quite unbearable. Filling prisons with drug users is probably not the answer, but just letting people do as they please because they are addicts with issues doesn't guarantee great outcomes either.
HideousKojima 3y ago
You're never going to get mass public support to decriminalize heroin and other hard drugs.
chriscjcj 3y ago
And if the mayor mentions this reality, she is forced to apologize. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-Mayor-Breed-apologizes-for-comments-about-17523048.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-Mayor-Breed-...

MarkMarine 3y ago

+1 to that. I worry it’s not possible because drug war allows political posturing that goes back from Nixon and hippies and the southern strategy, to the current talk about “inner cities” and Chicago, it’s all coded language because they can’t say what they want to say, but people who know to listen for it hear the words. The stick hasn’t been working for anyone except the private prison investors. We should do exactly what you’re saying. I fear the unfortunate truth is that even those measures wouldn’t be enough, we need to fix the push toward this need to escape. Something like the changes you listed, and the new deal era public works projects paying a legit middle class wage.

gumby 3y ago

It's notable to look to the experience of Portugal, recently discussed on HN, in fact. Their policy of decriminalizing all drug use was successful for over a decade, until they privatized part of it. Would the US do this in a sensible fashion, or in a half-assed "public-private partnership" fashion? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36638752 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36638752

Dig1t 3y ago

It seems like we’re screwed either way. Reading and watching videos about Portugal, it does not look like it’s going very well. It seems like the experiment to decriminalize drugs there started out going pretty well but has turned ugly in recent years. idk what we can possibly do. Drugs are already effectively decriminalized in coastal cities anyway and it doesn’t look like it’s doing good things for the population.

wellthisisgreat 3y ago
I read that Portugal derailed the program itself, underfunded and privatized it and it’s a shadow of what it was when it started. I imagine it’s important to support the drug infrastructure so to speak - support for addicts, non-police-centric ways of dealing with the potential addicts etc. drugs are the devil, but they do come with their share of problems, which you can’t expect to just vanish upon legalizaton. Government/ society gotta put in an effort comparable at least to that of the anti-tobacco etc.

mikrl 3y ago

It seems the liberalization approach is failing in a few places. Part of me knows that it’s because only the most surface level feel good things are being done, and we are just helping addicts stay addicts (and alive!) instead of treating them. On the other hand, I’m not holding my breath for “our current approach is failing, we need more of it” to get ANY political traction. Not these days.

bufferoverflow 3y ago

Portugal tried it, and the number of addicts skyrocketed. Some drugs are just so much more addicting than alcohol. I quit drinking a few years ago without any side effects. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-drugs-decriminalization-heroin-crack/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-dru...

cameldrv 3y ago

IMO this will not work. Serious drugs are absolutely a public health issue, and some public health issues have to be solved through civil and criminal laws. Drugs have to be approved by the FDA to be allowed to be sold, and the ultimate enforcement for this is civil and criminal law. If we regulated fentanyl and meth like alcohol, we would have an absolutely enormous population of addicts, and even in a legal, regulated market, those addicts would resort to crime to pay for drugs. Perhaps there is a better solution, but the best solution I know if is simply to much more aggressively enforce drug laws. Dealers of serious drugs should be facing major jail time, and even personal possession should be punished with significant jail time.

mplewis9z 3y ago
Ah yes, the “trust me, this time the war on drugs will totally work” response.
- thegrim33 3y ago
  How do you explain all of the first world asian countries where drugs are insanely illegal, there very much have a massive war on drugs, and yet they have an amazing quality of life there without meth head zombies roaming the streets? Where it's apparent their war on drugs has very much worked?
  - jjav 3y ago
    > Where it's apparent their war on drugs has very much worked? I'd bet (but hopefully someone can link to research) that there are many contributing factors for why vast hordes of people don't feel the need to numb themselves to death with drugs in those locations? Very few people voluntarily want to become addicts if they are having a happy fulfilling life. So why are there so many people in the US who see no other road to take?
    - cameldrv 3y ago
      There are plenty of people in these countries that have very difficult lives that might be prone to drug addiction if drugs were available, but they're not, so they aren't.

lastofus 3y ago

Drug use was decriminalized in Portland OR by ballot measure, and it is not going well. Open air drug use, coupled with an increase in violence and crime have made being in large parts of downtown quite unbearable. Filling prisons with drug users is probably not the answer, but just letting people do as they please because they are addicts with issues doesn't guarantee great outcomes either.

HideousKojima 3y ago

You're never going to get mass public support to decriminalize heroin and other hard drugs.

chriscjcj 3y ago

And if the mayor mentions this reality, she is forced to apologize. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-Mayor-Breed-apologizes-for-comments-about-17523048.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-Mayor-Breed-...