6 ms·

I don't know what's inside Mark Wahlberg's heart, but let's suppose it's someone whom, for the sake of argument, we know truly regrets their actions: what are t

by amp108 3y ago

I don't know what's inside Mark Wahlberg's heart, but let's suppose it's someone whom, for the sake of argument, we know truly regrets their actions: what are they supposed to do if another person doesn't forgive them?

miiiiiike 3y ago
If they can’t or won’t forgive you: Try not to make the same mistake twice. You can’t control what other people do, only how you react to it.
pmarreck 3y ago
As the article says, they should be pushing for redemption opportunities for all convicted felons (based on a humanistic perspective), not just themselves (based on some confused notion of an “I have become successful enough to buy high-priced lawyers to retcon my rap sheet since I have redeemed myself” perspective)
mrguyorama 3y ago
Accept that sometimes when you do a bad thing that permanently harms someone else you don't deserve forgiveness (not everyone is christian FFS) and it's not wrong for that to follow you around forever. If that makes you uncomfortable, too fucking bad, don't irreversibly blind someone.
- norir 3y ago
  Judge not, lest ye be judged.
  - hiatus 3y ago
    As if that were the case. If only those that did not judge were spared judgement themselves.
  - bandie91 3y ago
    important to note that it is not an absolute command. it's qualified as it follows: "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
- stronglikedan 3y ago
  Accepting those things seems like a miserable way to live. No thanks. I prefer to move on with my life, even when I was wronged.
  - Jiro 3y ago
    This is about if you have wronged someone else, not if you are wronged, If you've wronged someone else, maybe you should live miserably if you can't possibly make up for the wrong.
    - superb_dev 3y ago
      Are some accidents truly unforgivable? No one should be punished for the rest of their life because they wronged someone in their childhood. If they’ve grown, feel remorse and regret, then they’ve done their time and need to forgive themselves. There no point in carrying around such a burden. Very few people deserve to be miserable.
      - mrguyorama 3y ago
        This post does not limit itself to true accidents. Indeed, both people involved were negligent. Preventable harm that you do not prevent through your own choices can very well be unforgivable. Pretending that everything should be forgivable is a heinous thing to do to victims, and they have every right to not forgive or forget if you have caused them irreversible harm through negligence or accident. A victim has the right to never forget how you changed their life. You do not have a right to be free from the burden you have caused someone else.
        progmetaldev 3y ago
        I can't necessarily agree with this. Some people are hurt over extremely minor offenses, which may or may not have been an accident. What if the perpetrator of the offense has grown and tried to make amends for the wrong they've done? Do they need to carry the burden of guilt forever? I think there is room for forgiveness of oneself, even if those you have burdened do not forgive you. Maybe it's not the same, but everyone is different. I would hate to think that someone in their early teen years did something selfish and stupid (like most of us do), and they were not forgiven by the victim, and they had to carry that with them to the end of their life. Society does not grow with an overwhelming sense of guilt (now, this is very different if you intentionally cause malice and are truly not sorry, and do nothing to make things right).
- bittercynic 3y ago
  If you make a mistake like this, where you owe a debt that can never be repaid, I think we need some social mechanism where you can do your best to make amends and get some measure of closure. This probably should follow you around forever, but maybe it shouldn't dominate every moment of the rest of your life.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    No, victims are not obligated to forgive you and neither is society. Sometimes people do bad things that cannot be undone and should not be forgotten. Sometimes that person doing the bad thing is you. Even if you didn't intend to harm someone, even if you did nothing wrong, even if you followed best known procedures and were fully attentive, you can still cause irreparable harm to someone else, and we shouldn't just pretend that's okay as some coping strategy. Sometimes you hurt someone and you should feel bad about that. Deal with it. It's a part of life to be an imperfect human and this should help you keep in mind that EVERYONE IS AN IMPERFECT HUMAN.
    - bittercynic 3y ago
      Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems like we're in agreement, no?
      - bittercynic 3y ago
        Replying to myself - I didn't understand the context of this conversation before, but I just read Mark Wahlberg's wikipedia page. Yikes. Seems like the guy was (and is?) a violent, hateful, lunatic. Something smells very off about one of his victims releasing a public statement that he has forgiven Mark. I was not intending to argue that he should be pardoned.
    - blq10 3y ago
      We do that, it's called imprisoning people for a very long time. This is generally unpopular among liberal and left leaning spaces, and is only marginally popular in right leaning ones.
- femiagbabiaka 3y ago
  This is basically the raison d'etre of the American justice system today. Of course, I also think it would be nice if someone who committed hate crimes was justly punished for it, but stepping back from this specific example, I think the bloodlust around what constitutes a "just punishment" goes too far in most cases.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    My stance says nothing about punishment. Punishment has nothing to do with lack of forgiveness. Forgiveness is also not a necessity to treat other people, including those who have harmed you, as inherently flawed humans that deserve basic things like dignity. Forgiveness is a broken concept. Just because you can be a better person later in life should not absolve you of bad things you did before. This isn't a call for everyone to carry grudges, but a call that we should stop trying to play this dumb "just keep pretending everything is always and will always be 'okay' in some way" ideology. People sometimes do bad things because they are bad people or do not care about others, and it's okay to not forgive that. People sometimes do bad things through no real fault of their own and it's okay to still not forgive that.
    - femiagbabiaka 3y ago
      It's an interesting idea. Law, justice systems, were all created in order to adjudicate that level of animosity and prevent it passing on to future generations. Holding on to a grudge, not even out of a sense of justice, but purely out of hate, seems like a path towards poor mental health. But I'm lucky enough to not have any hate that strong -- those I've chosen not to forgive I've instead chosen to forget, which is a privilege relative to the level of wrongs done.
  - progmetaldev 3y ago
    The American justice system seems to be based upon profit, and keeping people reoffending in order to continue keeping the justice system in place. There is no incentive to reform as the system currently stands. It is a major failure of society that recidivism is an expected consequence of being "in the system."
- cayblood 3y ago
  One of the profound contributions of Christianity, corroborated in other wisdom traditions, is the assertion that every single one of us ignorantly does irreparable harm to others in the course of our lifetimes. Recognizing this is the beginning of wisdom, and figuring out how to live life in light of this reality has been the driving force behind many different philosophies and religious traditions passed down over the ages. Pretending other people are the problem is the problem. Of course, that doesn't justify gross negligence, but the human ego is very good at dismissing selfish, entropy-increasing behavior as harmless. May I humbly submit that the approach you suggest here is incomplete.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    > One of the profound contributions of Christianity, corroborated in other wisdom traditions, is the assertion that every single one of us ignorantly does irreparable harm to others in the course of our lifetimes. The problem, though, with Christianity's take on it (or at least what some Christians take from it), is that they push the idea that all you need to do to achieve salvation is to believe in Jesus as savior, and all is fine and dandy. Doesn't matter what sins you've committed, or if you're even truly repentant. Just believe Jesus died for your sins, and you're good. On one hand I agree that this could promote acceptance that we are all flawed beings, and will all end up doing bad things here and there, and that it's pretty much unavoidable. But I worry that this also can promote a sense of invulnerability and unaccountability. "Doesn't matter what I do, Jesus will take care of me."
    - macksd 3y ago
      > or at least what some Christians take from it > Doesn't matter what I do, Jesus will take care of me Well yes let's be clear that only a very selective reading of the New Testament allows you to conclude Jesus doesn't think it matters what you do. It's the same kind of logic that leads one to preach the "prosperity gospel". It's very clear that loving Jesus goes hand in hand with loving others and living his commandments as best you can.
      - batch12 3y ago
- JackFr 3y ago
  Well that’s the thing. No one deserves forgiveness (Christians especially should know that forgiveness is not earned with merit, but distributed with grace.) But genuine forgiveness is a powerful thing, though it’s very hard.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    "Sir," the woman cried, "If he deserved it, it wouldn't be mercy. And so I ask for mercy." https://chrismowery.blogspot.com/2016/02/a-life-lesson-from-napoleon.html https://chrismowery.blogspot.com/2016/02/a-life-lesson-from-...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Sammi 3y ago
  That just breeds more misery and does noone any good. If you've done something bad, then forgive yourself and be kind to yourself, because you need to do better in the future. This is a better lesson that will do everyone more good.
pharrington 3y ago
He did real harm that his victim did not forgive, so he's supposed to hold that. You're not supposed to ask the governor for an official pardon, erasing his crime from the criminal record. edit: "“My hope is that, if I receive a pardon, troubled youths will see this as an inspiration and motivation that they too can turn their lives around,” he writes." Yeah, I DO NOT believe the world famous multimillionaire needs a governor's pardon to help kids. edit2: given the wikipedia article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36805073's https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36805073's links to, it seems like Wahlberg himself now doesn't believe he should have tried to obtain a pardon.
ottoludd 3y ago
While he did attack two men, the blinded victim actually lost his eye prior to the incident and claimed Wahlberg didn't inflict any lasting damage. Apparently Marky Mark mistakenly believed he blinded the man. Not that I'm defending him, I don't even like him.

by amp108 3y ago

miiiiiike 3y ago

If they can’t or won’t forgive you: Try not to make the same mistake twice. You can’t control what other people do, only how you react to it.

pmarreck 3y ago

As the article says, they should be pushing for redemption opportunities for all convicted felons (based on a humanistic perspective), not just themselves (based on some confused notion of an “I have become successful enough to buy high-priced lawyers to retcon my rap sheet since I have redeemed myself” perspective)

mrguyorama 3y ago

Accept that sometimes when you do a bad thing that permanently harms someone else you don't deserve forgiveness (not everyone is christian FFS) and it's not wrong for that to follow you around forever. If that makes you uncomfortable, too fucking bad, don't irreversibly blind someone.

norir 3y ago
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
- hiatus 3y ago
  As if that were the case. If only those that did not judge were spared judgement themselves.
- bandie91 3y ago
  important to note that it is not an absolute command. it's qualified as it follows: "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
stronglikedan 3y ago
Accepting those things seems like a miserable way to live. No thanks. I prefer to move on with my life, even when I was wronged.
- Jiro 3y ago
  This is about if you have wronged someone else, not if you are wronged, If you've wronged someone else, maybe you should live miserably if you can't possibly make up for the wrong.
  - superb_dev 3y ago
    Are some accidents truly unforgivable? No one should be punished for the rest of their life because they wronged someone in their childhood. If they’ve grown, feel remorse and regret, then they’ve done their time and need to forgive themselves. There no point in carrying around such a burden. Very few people deserve to be miserable.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      This post does not limit itself to true accidents. Indeed, both people involved were negligent. Preventable harm that you do not prevent through your own choices can very well be unforgivable. Pretending that everything should be forgivable is a heinous thing to do to victims, and they have every right to not forgive or forget if you have caused them irreversible harm through negligence or accident. A victim has the right to never forget how you changed their life. You do not have a right to be free from the burden you have caused someone else.
      - progmetaldev 3y ago
        I can't necessarily agree with this. Some people are hurt over extremely minor offenses, which may or may not have been an accident. What if the perpetrator of the offense has grown and tried to make amends for the wrong they've done? Do they need to carry the burden of guilt forever? I think there is room for forgiveness of oneself, even if those you have burdened do not forgive you. Maybe it's not the same, but everyone is different. I would hate to think that someone in their early teen years did something selfish and stupid (like most of us do), and they were not forgiven by the victim, and they had to carry that with them to the end of their life. Society does not grow with an overwhelming sense of guilt (now, this is very different if you intentionally cause malice and are truly not sorry, and do nothing to make things right).
bittercynic 3y ago
If you make a mistake like this, where you owe a debt that can never be repaid, I think we need some social mechanism where you can do your best to make amends and get some measure of closure. This probably should follow you around forever, but maybe it shouldn't dominate every moment of the rest of your life.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  No, victims are not obligated to forgive you and neither is society. Sometimes people do bad things that cannot be undone and should not be forgotten. Sometimes that person doing the bad thing is you. Even if you didn't intend to harm someone, even if you did nothing wrong, even if you followed best known procedures and were fully attentive, you can still cause irreparable harm to someone else, and we shouldn't just pretend that's okay as some coping strategy. Sometimes you hurt someone and you should feel bad about that. Deal with it. It's a part of life to be an imperfect human and this should help you keep in mind that EVERYONE IS AN IMPERFECT HUMAN.
  - bittercynic 3y ago
    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems like we're in agreement, no?
    - bittercynic 3y ago
      Replying to myself - I didn't understand the context of this conversation before, but I just read Mark Wahlberg's wikipedia page. Yikes. Seems like the guy was (and is?) a violent, hateful, lunatic. Something smells very off about one of his victims releasing a public statement that he has forgiven Mark. I was not intending to argue that he should be pardoned.
  - blq10 3y ago
    We do that, it's called imprisoning people for a very long time. This is generally unpopular among liberal and left leaning spaces, and is only marginally popular in right leaning ones.
femiagbabiaka 3y ago
This is basically the raison d'etre of the American justice system today. Of course, I also think it would be nice if someone who committed hate crimes was justly punished for it, but stepping back from this specific example, I think the bloodlust around what constitutes a "just punishment" goes too far in most cases.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  My stance says nothing about punishment. Punishment has nothing to do with lack of forgiveness. Forgiveness is also not a necessity to treat other people, including those who have harmed you, as inherently flawed humans that deserve basic things like dignity. Forgiveness is a broken concept. Just because you can be a better person later in life should not absolve you of bad things you did before. This isn't a call for everyone to carry grudges, but a call that we should stop trying to play this dumb "just keep pretending everything is always and will always be 'okay' in some way" ideology. People sometimes do bad things because they are bad people or do not care about others, and it's okay to not forgive that. People sometimes do bad things through no real fault of their own and it's okay to still not forgive that.
  - femiagbabiaka 3y ago
    It's an interesting idea. Law, justice systems, were all created in order to adjudicate that level of animosity and prevent it passing on to future generations. Holding on to a grudge, not even out of a sense of justice, but purely out of hate, seems like a path towards poor mental health. But I'm lucky enough to not have any hate that strong -- those I've chosen not to forgive I've instead chosen to forget, which is a privilege relative to the level of wrongs done.
- progmetaldev 3y ago
  The American justice system seems to be based upon profit, and keeping people reoffending in order to continue keeping the justice system in place. There is no incentive to reform as the system currently stands. It is a major failure of society that recidivism is an expected consequence of being "in the system."
cayblood 3y ago
One of the profound contributions of Christianity, corroborated in other wisdom traditions, is the assertion that every single one of us ignorantly does irreparable harm to others in the course of our lifetimes. Recognizing this is the beginning of wisdom, and figuring out how to live life in light of this reality has been the driving force behind many different philosophies and religious traditions passed down over the ages. Pretending other people are the problem is the problem. Of course, that doesn't justify gross negligence, but the human ego is very good at dismissing selfish, entropy-increasing behavior as harmless. May I humbly submit that the approach you suggest here is incomplete.
- kelnos 3y ago
  > One of the profound contributions of Christianity, corroborated in other wisdom traditions, is the assertion that every single one of us ignorantly does irreparable harm to others in the course of our lifetimes. The problem, though, with Christianity's take on it (or at least what some Christians take from it), is that they push the idea that all you need to do to achieve salvation is to believe in Jesus as savior, and all is fine and dandy. Doesn't matter what sins you've committed, or if you're even truly repentant. Just believe Jesus died for your sins, and you're good. On one hand I agree that this could promote acceptance that we are all flawed beings, and will all end up doing bad things here and there, and that it's pretty much unavoidable. But I worry that this also can promote a sense of invulnerability and unaccountability. "Doesn't matter what I do, Jesus will take care of me."
  - macksd 3y ago
    > or at least what some Christians take from it > Doesn't matter what I do, Jesus will take care of me Well yes let's be clear that only a very selective reading of the New Testament allows you to conclude Jesus doesn't think it matters what you do. It's the same kind of logic that leads one to preach the "prosperity gospel". It's very clear that loving Jesus goes hand in hand with loving others and living his commandments as best you can.
    - batch12 3y ago
JackFr 3y ago
Well that’s the thing. No one deserves forgiveness (Christians especially should know that forgiveness is not earned with merit, but distributed with grace.) But genuine forgiveness is a powerful thing, though it’s very hard.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  "Sir," the woman cried, "If he deserved it, it wouldn't be mercy. And so I ask for mercy." https://chrismowery.blogspot.com/2016/02/a-life-lesson-from-napoleon.html https://chrismowery.blogspot.com/2016/02/a-life-lesson-from-...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Sammi 3y ago
That just breeds more misery and does noone any good. If you've done something bad, then forgive yourself and be kind to yourself, because you need to do better in the future. This is a better lesson that will do everyone more good.

pharrington 3y ago

He did real harm that his victim did not forgive, so he's supposed to hold that. You're not supposed to ask the governor for an official pardon, erasing his crime from the criminal record. edit: "“My hope is that, if I receive a pardon, troubled youths will see this as an inspiration and motivation that they too can turn their lives around,” he writes." Yeah, I DO NOT believe the world famous multimillionaire needs a governor's pardon to help kids. edit2: given the wikipedia article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36805073's https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36805073's links to, it seems like Wahlberg himself now doesn't believe he should have tried to obtain a pardon.

ottoludd 3y ago

While he did attack two men, the blinded victim actually lost his eye prior to the incident and claimed Wahlberg didn't inflict any lasting damage. Apparently Marky Mark mistakenly believed he blinded the man. Not that I'm defending him, I don't even like him.