3 ms·

>why not let it and free up the human for other things? Cause this has never been the majority outcome in the history of technology The outcome in 90%? of mec

>why not let it and free up the human for other things? Cause this has never been the majority outcome in the history of technology The outcome in 90%? of mechanization/automation is not upskilling - it’s displacement. Work gets outsourced to cheaper labor areas or you’re now a baby sitter instead of a tradesperson that is more easily replaced because you have few skills. All the “meritocracy” goes out the window when there’s no need for human expertise - so everyone is the same faceless commodity that simply enforces the rules of whatever mechanical system they are now monitoring. At the end of the day, where once a person went to be a cashier for 8-10 hours a day having conversations and fixing problems and helping people - now you’re on your own waiting for the one person who is running the self-checkout to come over and fix the weight error because you thought you typed in the UPC for a pear but you accidentally typed the UPC for a watermelon and the system required human assistance Everything is worse and you’re doing someone else’s labor and they now have fewer job options.

echelon 3y ago
> > why not let it and free up the human for other things? > Cause this has never been the majority outcome in the history of technology Work isn't disappearing. The US has great employment numbers that have been stable except for a few systemic shocks. With globalization, more people worldwide have been employed and lifted out of poverty than ever before. Would you rather pull a random job out of a hat from today or fifty to a hundred years ago? Self-employment is also a rising labor trend. What's more fulfilling than being your own boss?
solardev 3y ago
In years of using self checkout, I've required human assistance only a handful of times, maybe 3 or 4 minutes total over all the years. That's still a huge improvement over waiting for cashiers. Perhaps your experiences were different, but for me they are a godsend. That's not really the point though. About the jobs, yes, we are in agreement about the displacement. I'm saying we need better systems to deal with that displacement at the social/national level, not at the micro level of an individual job going away one at a time. There's just no way capitalist companies are going to keep unnecessary labor employed. Staff are a cost that eat away at profits. I'm not saying that's a nice way to think about it, but that's how they work, and unless we can directly tackle that part of the mindset (that humans are there just as an input to some owner's dollars out), we won't really solve the issue. Bandaiding them through forced employment laws won't really work as our companies just become less efficient and companies outsource. You can't really have a protected economy like that unless you're also willing to limit outsourcing (which I'd be for, but capitalists who control the government aren't). I would love to get paid a living wage doing something less brain-wracking than coding (like journalism or barista-ing). But our economic system doesn't make that easy, or even possible. It's going to get worse over time without deep structural change...
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  >I'm saying we need better systems to deal with that displacement at the social/national level, not at the micro level of an individual job going away one at a time Why not both? You can decide whether you will support or boycott organizations and systems that actively pursue these things, while also lobbying and voting and building organizations that pursue mutual voluntary organization. Might mean you have to change your lifestyle though and most people don't want to do that. >Bandaiding them through forced employment laws won't really work as our companies just become less efficient and companies outsource. You can't really have a protected economy like that unless you're also willing to limit outsourcing (which I'd be for, but capitalists who control the government aren't). Literally nobody suggested this in this thread, me or otherwise. >There's just no way capitalist companies are going to keep unnecessary labor employed. I would challenge you to imagine some solutions that are neither capitalist nor governmental. If you can't think of anything beyond these two options then I suggest reading more about mutual-voluntary organization.
  - solardev 3y ago
    > Literally nobody suggested this in this thread, me or otherwise. Sorry I wasn't clear! I can see how that looks like a strawman... what I meant is that I would like to see a more protectionist economy (by the government). Apologies for the unclear phrasing. > I would challenge you to imagine some solutions that are neither capitalist nor governmental. If you can't think of anything beyond these two options then I suggest reading more about mutual-voluntary organization. > Why not both? You can decide whether you will support or boycott organizations and systems that actively pursue these things, while also lobbying and voting and building organizations that pursue mutual voluntary organization. Might mean you have to change your lifestyle though and most people don't want to do that. I do try to support community organizations of various forms (State Farm, REI, 501s, ESOPs, food co-ops, solidarity economies, church-charities for disaster relief and homelessness, etc.). But I think there are some problems at scale that are uniquely suited for government-like entities with national policymaking reach, and technology-driven job displacement is one of them. I'm not enough of an anarchist to see a well-functioning government (which, to be clear, the USA does not have) as terribly different from other forms of democratic decision-making. Rather than having a bunch of small shadow governments parallel to the federal and state ones, I really wish we could transform those actual governments into something with more direct democracy, especially at the local levels. That may or may not happen in my lifetime, but I think that's a better long-term solution than a bunch of small scrappy NGOs and alt-societies popping in and out of existence, almost always with very limited reach and impact. Sometimes they feel more like performance theater than actual social forces. I think one can only witness so many Occupy-like uprisings before starting to seriously doubt their effectiveness. I believe it takes a certain economy of scale that only government (and huge multinational corps) have access to, that's needed to be truly transformative. Some unions have reskilling programs, for example, but it's not really enough to save an entire profession/industry. But... I would love to be proven wrong. Do you have any examples of non-governmental cooperative/democratic organizations that can effect large-scale socioeconomic change?
anigbrowl 3y ago
you’re doing someone else’s labor I'm doing my own labor. Personally I often don't want to have conversations while doing my grocery shopping, especially not the fake corporate kind. Having to have such conversations as an employee of a supermarket was a very unpleasant experience, lacking in dignity. You make a lot of good points, but others are extremely half baked.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  Nothing half baked about it I have regular ongoing relationships with the employees at the Giant (Grocery store) near my house and know their names and who they are as people and they know me and my kids and it's great. To the extent where together, myself, Sandi (Night Manager), the Asst Manager and some of the staff all worked together to help get a wonderful man back on his feet that was struggling and begging and living outside nearby. (edit:In this case he was begging, and I sat and talked with him about his situation and getting him what he needed for that day. Then I recruited the staff to watch for him and I would leave a bag of food every week but they needed to give it to him, so that's what they did. He ended up moving in with family and I saw him again (at that same Giant) but instead he was shopping with his family and he told me that we all collectively saved his life.) So yes building community is important and you can do so with the individual people that work within these corporate systems to great effect and for the tangible and measurable benefit of human flourishing today right now. edit:I can't reply to comments on this for some reason
  - solardev 3y ago
    What is Giant? The bicycle company? Do you mean you and a few employees there just got together and started, what, a shared pot of money for emergencies? Can you please share more about how that happened (or maybe even a blog post)? I'd love to try something similar.
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
      See my edit above. It wouldn't let me reply for some reason. Basically, I just took it upon myself to help this guy but I needed the staff to help. Because I already knew them over years of interaction, it was an easy conversation/ask that they agreed to and we were successful in giving this guy a hand up. No govt or coercion or anything needed.
CamperBob2 3y ago
You're a human being. Your life has a greater purpose than doing a robot's job badly. Find it.

echelon 3y ago

> > why not let it and free up the human for other things? > Cause this has never been the majority outcome in the history of technology Work isn't disappearing. The US has great employment numbers that have been stable except for a few systemic shocks. With globalization, more people worldwide have been employed and lifted out of poverty than ever before. Would you rather pull a random job out of a hat from today or fifty to a hundred years ago? Self-employment is also a rising labor trend. What's more fulfilling than being your own boss?

solardev 3y ago

In years of using self checkout, I've required human assistance only a handful of times, maybe 3 or 4 minutes total over all the years. That's still a huge improvement over waiting for cashiers. Perhaps your experiences were different, but for me they are a godsend. That's not really the point though. About the jobs, yes, we are in agreement about the displacement. I'm saying we need better systems to deal with that displacement at the social/national level, not at the micro level of an individual job going away one at a time. There's just no way capitalist companies are going to keep unnecessary labor employed. Staff are a cost that eat away at profits. I'm not saying that's a nice way to think about it, but that's how they work, and unless we can directly tackle that part of the mindset (that humans are there just as an input to some owner's dollars out), we won't really solve the issue. Bandaiding them through forced employment laws won't really work as our companies just become less efficient and companies outsource. You can't really have a protected economy like that unless you're also willing to limit outsourcing (which I'd be for, but capitalists who control the government aren't). I would love to get paid a living wage doing something less brain-wracking than coding (like journalism or barista-ing). But our economic system doesn't make that easy, or even possible. It's going to get worse over time without deep structural change...

AndrewKemendo 3y ago
>I'm saying we need better systems to deal with that displacement at the social/national level, not at the micro level of an individual job going away one at a time Why not both? You can decide whether you will support or boycott organizations and systems that actively pursue these things, while also lobbying and voting and building organizations that pursue mutual voluntary organization. Might mean you have to change your lifestyle though and most people don't want to do that. >Bandaiding them through forced employment laws won't really work as our companies just become less efficient and companies outsource. You can't really have a protected economy like that unless you're also willing to limit outsourcing (which I'd be for, but capitalists who control the government aren't). Literally nobody suggested this in this thread, me or otherwise. >There's just no way capitalist companies are going to keep unnecessary labor employed. I would challenge you to imagine some solutions that are neither capitalist nor governmental. If you can't think of anything beyond these two options then I suggest reading more about mutual-voluntary organization.
- solardev 3y ago
  > Literally nobody suggested this in this thread, me or otherwise. Sorry I wasn't clear! I can see how that looks like a strawman... what I meant is that I would like to see a more protectionist economy (by the government). Apologies for the unclear phrasing. > I would challenge you to imagine some solutions that are neither capitalist nor governmental. If you can't think of anything beyond these two options then I suggest reading more about mutual-voluntary organization. > Why not both? You can decide whether you will support or boycott organizations and systems that actively pursue these things, while also lobbying and voting and building organizations that pursue mutual voluntary organization. Might mean you have to change your lifestyle though and most people don't want to do that. I do try to support community organizations of various forms (State Farm, REI, 501s, ESOPs, food co-ops, solidarity economies, church-charities for disaster relief and homelessness, etc.). But I think there are some problems at scale that are uniquely suited for government-like entities with national policymaking reach, and technology-driven job displacement is one of them. I'm not enough of an anarchist to see a well-functioning government (which, to be clear, the USA does not have) as terribly different from other forms of democratic decision-making. Rather than having a bunch of small shadow governments parallel to the federal and state ones, I really wish we could transform those actual governments into something with more direct democracy, especially at the local levels. That may or may not happen in my lifetime, but I think that's a better long-term solution than a bunch of small scrappy NGOs and alt-societies popping in and out of existence, almost always with very limited reach and impact. Sometimes they feel more like performance theater than actual social forces. I think one can only witness so many Occupy-like uprisings before starting to seriously doubt their effectiveness. I believe it takes a certain economy of scale that only government (and huge multinational corps) have access to, that's needed to be truly transformative. Some unions have reskilling programs, for example, but it's not really enough to save an entire profession/industry. But... I would love to be proven wrong. Do you have any examples of non-governmental cooperative/democratic organizations that can effect large-scale socioeconomic change?

anigbrowl 3y ago

you’re doing someone else’s labor I'm doing my own labor. Personally I often don't want to have conversations while doing my grocery shopping, especially not the fake corporate kind. Having to have such conversations as an employee of a supermarket was a very unpleasant experience, lacking in dignity. You make a lot of good points, but others are extremely half baked.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago
Nothing half baked about it I have regular ongoing relationships with the employees at the Giant (Grocery store) near my house and know their names and who they are as people and they know me and my kids and it's great. To the extent where together, myself, Sandi (Night Manager), the Asst Manager and some of the staff all worked together to help get a wonderful man back on his feet that was struggling and begging and living outside nearby. (edit:In this case he was begging, and I sat and talked with him about his situation and getting him what he needed for that day. Then I recruited the staff to watch for him and I would leave a bag of food every week but they needed to give it to him, so that's what they did. He ended up moving in with family and I saw him again (at that same Giant) but instead he was shopping with his family and he told me that we all collectively saved his life.) So yes building community is important and you can do so with the individual people that work within these corporate systems to great effect and for the tangible and measurable benefit of human flourishing today right now. edit:I can't reply to comments on this for some reason
- solardev 3y ago
  What is Giant? The bicycle company? Do you mean you and a few employees there just got together and started, what, a shared pot of money for emergencies? Can you please share more about how that happened (or maybe even a blog post)? I'd love to try something similar.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    See my edit above. It wouldn't let me reply for some reason. Basically, I just took it upon myself to help this guy but I needed the staff to help. Because I already knew them over years of interaction, it was an easy conversation/ask that they agreed to and we were successful in giving this guy a hand up. No govt or coercion or anything needed.

CamperBob2 3y ago

You're a human being. Your life has a greater purpose than doing a robot's job badly. Find it.