5 ms·

You are just giving your secrets to a company you can't change instead of a goverment you can elect.

by GoToRO 3y ago

HatchedLake721 3y ago
Ok, I give my secrets to a non-privacy focused company. I still cannot change that company.
can16358p 3y ago
Except that those "elected" governments are already just storefronts of big corps anyway.
wonderwonder 3y ago
The company doesn't have a hundred thousand armed officers with the ability to arrest / kill me for anything they can claim they found. Government comes equipped with legal violence, the company comes equipped with targeted ads
- ohgodplsno 3y ago
  It's true, they merely have enough cash on hand to fund a small army, enough legal power to crush you in court with anything you attempt. Make no mistake: if Apple needed to get someone killed, they would. They're not some miraculous pinnacles of good in a sea of evil. It's just that they merely need to flex the law at you to destroy your life forever. Apple is no different, they'll hire the Pinkertons and break your fingers should they find the need to. Carnegie Steel did it, Apple's not above it either.
  - sebzim4500 3y ago
    >Make no mistake: if Apple needed to get someone killed, they would. Ok, I'll play along. Suppose Tim Cook wakes up tomorrow and decides for some reason he wants me dead. How exactly does he do it?
    - wonderwonder 3y ago
      I would assume he brainwashes a male model to kill you. Sorry for the Zoolander reference. I couldn't help it
      - JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y ago
        But why male models?
    - KeplerBoy 3y ago
      Hiring a hitman to do it? There are plenty of unhinged people in this world who do illegal shit for enough money. Do you think some Ex-Wagner mercenary would pass up that offer?
    - locustous 3y ago
      SOP is to have a team "suicide" you.
      - JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y ago
        It doesn't even have to be good. It can be a "robbery" where you get professional-grade double-tapped on your front lawn but nothing's taken, or a "suicide" where you hang yourself from a tree whilst simultaneously shotgunning yourself in the chest. The news will just parrot the local cops' PR statement.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      Do you live in China? If so, they probably just send a Foxconn employee or PRC representitive with some sort of firearm.
    - ohgodplsno 3y ago
      You lack creativity. You have multiple billions available for that. Where do you want your remains to disappear ? Hell, even sharks with lasers isn't far fetched with that amount of money. But all playfulness aside: * Pay professional hitmen. * Pay a hobo enough to go beat you up in your home. * Pay enough people enough money to kill you pretty much anywhere. What are they going to do, plead in front of a judge that sees 90% of his murder cases unsolved or solved through guilty pleas that Tim Cook gave them a wad of cash when all they saw was a subordinate of a subordinate of a subordinate ? There's nothing fancy about it. Especially with an economy that drives people to drastic measures: a huge wad of cash that you're guaranteed to keep is enough for most people.
- tarxvf 3y ago
  And the company can give your data to the government with no recourse available to you and no warrant required from the government.
  - tifik 3y ago
    If they choose to sure, but I dont see what incentive they would have. After all, the post is about a company removing products from a market rather than being subject to a law that would allow the gov to force them to do so.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      > but I dont see what incentive they would have. They are frequently subpoenaed for information, and turn over that data more often than not: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html
      - tifik 3y ago
        Yeah, because they are asked to/legally required. I was questioning incentives to hand over information on their own accord, just because they can.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        All of these are their own accord. That's even what OP's article is about - if Apple is legally required to break their encryption in the EU, then they will discontinue their product. Let's not pretend this is a privacy-motivated decision. Where Apple doesn't have negotiating power (eg. China) they have been forced to compromise user safety and privacy[0]. We live in a post XKeyscore world, pretending like this doesn't also happen in America or the UK is a bedtime story for helpless capitalists. [0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 edit: s/EU/UK
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
- peoplefromibiza 3y ago
  > The company doesn't have a hundred thousand armed officers with the ability to arrest / kill me ask Foxconn employees if that's true or not.
williamdclt 3y ago
The company can't send me in jail if they don't like what I'm trying to keep secret
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Sure they can. History is full of examples of powerful corporations doing things like putting people in jail, commanding armies, etc.
  - JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y ago
    Downvoters: instead of reflexively downvoting, why not try reading? Here is some recent history: Blood for Bananas: United Fruit's Central American Empire [0] The lawyer who took on Chevron – and now marks his 600th day under house arrest [1] (Debatable) Business Plot, aka Wall St Putsch [2] [0] https://history.wsu.edu/rci/sample-research-project/ https://history.wsu.edu/rci/sample-research-project/ [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/28/chevron-lawyer-steven-donziger-ecuador-house-arrest https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/28/chevron-lawy... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
pfannkuchen 3y ago
Companies can’t put you in a box at gunpoint if you break one of their rules.
throwbadubadu 3y ago
Sure thing, goes quick, and never changes, and works everywhere :) The power a government has over you is likely also potentially the same as a company? And lastly it is wrong, if the apps do E2E right (but I have no clue about that) you don't give them a secret at all? You also cannot change one company, but you can change companies usually better than governments ;)
scarface_74 3y ago
How many people are going to make encryption their top priority when voting? And besides, private corporations don’t have a “monopoly on violence”, the government does
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
CamperBob2 3y ago
WTF? I can buy a phone from another company if I disagree with Apple's approach, or use no phone at all. Try doing that with your government sometime and see how it goes for you. Nobody worries about the government giving customer data to Apple, do they? Why do you suppose that might be?

You are just giving your secrets to a company you can't change instead of a goverment you can elect.

by GoToRO 3y ago

You are just giving your secrets to a company you can't change instead of a goverment you can elect.

HatchedLake721 3y ago

Ok, I give my secrets to a non-privacy focused company. I still cannot change that company.

can16358p 3y ago

Except that those "elected" governments are already just storefronts of big corps anyway.

wonderwonder 3y ago

The company doesn't have a hundred thousand armed officers with the ability to arrest / kill me for anything they can claim they found. Government comes equipped with legal violence, the company comes equipped with targeted ads

ohgodplsno 3y ago
It's true, they merely have enough cash on hand to fund a small army, enough legal power to crush you in court with anything you attempt. Make no mistake: if Apple needed to get someone killed, they would. They're not some miraculous pinnacles of good in a sea of evil. It's just that they merely need to flex the law at you to destroy your life forever. Apple is no different, they'll hire the Pinkertons and break your fingers should they find the need to. Carnegie Steel did it, Apple's not above it either.
- sebzim4500 3y ago
  >Make no mistake: if Apple needed to get someone killed, they would. Ok, I'll play along. Suppose Tim Cook wakes up tomorrow and decides for some reason he wants me dead. How exactly does he do it?
  - wonderwonder 3y ago
    I would assume he brainwashes a male model to kill you. Sorry for the Zoolander reference. I couldn't help it
    - JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y ago
      But why male models?
  - KeplerBoy 3y ago
    Hiring a hitman to do it? There are plenty of unhinged people in this world who do illegal shit for enough money. Do you think some Ex-Wagner mercenary would pass up that offer?
  - locustous 3y ago
    SOP is to have a team "suicide" you.
    - JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y ago
      It doesn't even have to be good. It can be a "robbery" where you get professional-grade double-tapped on your front lawn but nothing's taken, or a "suicide" where you hang yourself from a tree whilst simultaneously shotgunning yourself in the chest. The news will just parrot the local cops' PR statement.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Do you live in China? If so, they probably just send a Foxconn employee or PRC representitive with some sort of firearm.
  - ohgodplsno 3y ago
    You lack creativity. You have multiple billions available for that. Where do you want your remains to disappear ? Hell, even sharks with lasers isn't far fetched with that amount of money. But all playfulness aside: * Pay professional hitmen. * Pay a hobo enough to go beat you up in your home. * Pay enough people enough money to kill you pretty much anywhere. What are they going to do, plead in front of a judge that sees 90% of his murder cases unsolved or solved through guilty pleas that Tim Cook gave them a wad of cash when all they saw was a subordinate of a subordinate of a subordinate ? There's nothing fancy about it. Especially with an economy that drives people to drastic measures: a huge wad of cash that you're guaranteed to keep is enough for most people.
tarxvf 3y ago
And the company can give your data to the government with no recourse available to you and no warrant required from the government.
- tifik 3y ago
  If they choose to sure, but I dont see what incentive they would have. After all, the post is about a company removing products from a market rather than being subject to a law that would allow the gov to force them to do so.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    > but I dont see what incentive they would have. They are frequently subpoenaed for information, and turn over that data more often than not: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html
    - tifik 3y ago
      Yeah, because they are asked to/legally required. I was questioning incentives to hand over information on their own accord, just because they can.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        All of these are their own accord. That's even what OP's article is about - if Apple is legally required to break their encryption in the EU, then they will discontinue their product. Let's not pretend this is a privacy-motivated decision. Where Apple doesn't have negotiating power (eg. China) they have been forced to compromise user safety and privacy[0]. We live in a post XKeyscore world, pretending like this doesn't also happen in America or the UK is a bedtime story for helpless capitalists. [0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 edit: s/EU/UK
        MichaelZuo 3y ago
peoplefromibiza 3y ago
> The company doesn't have a hundred thousand armed officers with the ability to arrest / kill me ask Foxconn employees if that's true or not.

williamdclt 3y ago

The company can't send me in jail if they don't like what I'm trying to keep secret

JohnFen 3y ago
Sure they can. History is full of examples of powerful corporations doing things like putting people in jail, commanding armies, etc.
- JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y ago
  Downvoters: instead of reflexively downvoting, why not try reading? Here is some recent history: Blood for Bananas: United Fruit's Central American Empire [0] The lawyer who took on Chevron – and now marks his 600th day under house arrest [1] (Debatable) Business Plot, aka Wall St Putsch [2] [0] https://history.wsu.edu/rci/sample-research-project/ https://history.wsu.edu/rci/sample-research-project/ [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/28/chevron-lawyer-steven-donziger-ecuador-house-arrest https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/28/chevron-lawy... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

pfannkuchen 3y ago

Companies can’t put you in a box at gunpoint if you break one of their rules.

throwbadubadu 3y ago

Sure thing, goes quick, and never changes, and works everywhere :) The power a government has over you is likely also potentially the same as a company? And lastly it is wrong, if the apps do E2E right (but I have no clue about that) you don't give them a secret at all? You also cannot change one company, but you can change companies usually better than governments ;)

scarface_74 3y ago

How many people are going to make encryption their top priority when voting? And besides, private corporations don’t have a “monopoly on violence”, the government does

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

CamperBob2 3y ago

WTF? I can buy a phone from another company if I disagree with Apple's approach, or use no phone at all. Try doing that with your government sometime and see how it goes for you. Nobody worries about the government giving customer data to Apple, do they? Why do you suppose that might be?