3 ms·

> The 2009 Greenstreet Berman study, carried out by the UK government, showed that in the period between 2002 and 2007 the UK Furniture and Furnishings Fire Saf

by scrlk 3y ago

> The 2009 Greenstreet Berman study, carried out by the UK government, showed that in the period between 2002 and 2007 the UK Furniture and Furnishings Fire Safety Regulations accounted for 54 fewer deaths per year, 780 fewer non-fatal casualties per year and 1065 fewer fires each year following the introduction of the UK furniture safety regulations in 1988. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_retardant#Fire_safety_standards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_retardant#Fire_safety_st... With these particular statistics, the benefits of flame retardants vs. poisoning millions of people doesn't seem worth it.

shadowgovt 3y ago
That's an apples / oranges comparison unless we agree on an actuarial calculus for the value of saving an entire life vs. the cost of shortening a million lives by a day.
- boondoggle16 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - shadowgovt 3y ago
    As a society, we generally try to strive for a higher standard than "The less cautious among us get what's coming to them." We don't, for example, have the attitude "seatebelts are whatever, let speeding people get pulped." And there's a good history as to why we don't do that. Even people with bad judgment deserve a shot at avoiding horrible death in a civilized society.
    - boondoggle16 3y ago
      If you fall asleep drunk with flammable objects, you deserve everything coming to you. This isn't discaution, it's up there with drunk driving.
      - shadowgovt 3y ago
        I'm currently working on minimizing the risks to life and limb associated with drunk driving, partially because I've known too many people dear to me who have suffered because of it to be comfortable with the notion "you deserve everything coming to you." So I think we may find ourselves at an "agree to disagree" place. ;)
        boondoggle16 3y ago
        Sorry you have friends like that. If I were you, I'd find new friends.
        shadowgovt 3y ago
        You seem to be assuming that my friends were the ones who were doing the drunk driving, not the ones in the other lane of traffic when the drunk driver swerved. In truth, they were both. I've known people who drove drunk and hurt others and I've known people who drove drunk and have been hurt and I know people who didn't drive drunk and were hurt by a drunk driver. It's a systemic problem and requires a systemic solution. Personal responsibility is the can we kick when we're unwilling to face the need to change incentives and structures.
        boondoggle16 3y ago
        Myself and my friends have personal responsibility already :shrug: If I found out a friend drove drunk, I'd berate the hell out of them and shame them. What a dangerous, selfish thing to do.
  - fluster 3y ago
    You do realize fire spreads, right?
  - veidr 3y ago
    Funny thing about fires, though: they often forget to stop burning when they get to the kids' bedroom upstairs, or the wall of the nice old granny next door...
    - boondoggle16 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - zymhan 3y ago
        You are an awful human being.
      - redwall_hp 3y ago
        Not only is eugenics bunk, but those who support it are the worst kind of trash.
- scrlk 3y ago
  Happy to be challenged on these numbers, as this isn't within my field of knowledge: * UK government value of prevented fatality: £2M [0] * UK government value of a quality-adjusted life-year for a single person: £70k -> ~£192 per day [1] [0] https://www.lse.ac.uk/PBS/assets/documents/Estimating-the-monetary-value-of-the-deaths-prevented-from-the-UK-Covid-19-lockdown-when-it-was-decided-upon-and-the-value-of-flattening-the-curve-June-2020.pdf https://www.lse.ac.uk/PBS/assets/documents/Estimating-the-mo... [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-green-book-appraisal-and-evaluation-in-central-governent/the-green-book-2020#a1-non-market-valuation-and-unmonetisable-values https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-green-book-ap...
RetpolineDrama 3y ago
It's likely worse than that, because I suspect this study is biased towards flame retardants being effective. It is true in a very narrow range of conditions a flame retardant can prevent combustion, but it's like an airbag that will only deploy for impacts between 15 and 17 MPH. In real world circumstances with real world combustion sources they don't make a difference.

by scrlk 3y ago

shadowgovt 3y ago

That's an apples / oranges comparison unless we agree on an actuarial calculus for the value of saving an entire life vs. the cost of shortening a million lives by a day.

boondoggle16 3y ago
[flagged]
- shadowgovt 3y ago
  As a society, we generally try to strive for a higher standard than "The less cautious among us get what's coming to them." We don't, for example, have the attitude "seatebelts are whatever, let speeding people get pulped." And there's a good history as to why we don't do that. Even people with bad judgment deserve a shot at avoiding horrible death in a civilized society.
  - boondoggle16 3y ago
    If you fall asleep drunk with flammable objects, you deserve everything coming to you. This isn't discaution, it's up there with drunk driving.
    - shadowgovt 3y ago
      I'm currently working on minimizing the risks to life and limb associated with drunk driving, partially because I've known too many people dear to me who have suffered because of it to be comfortable with the notion "you deserve everything coming to you." So I think we may find ourselves at an "agree to disagree" place. ;)
      - boondoggle16 3y ago
        Sorry you have friends like that. If I were you, I'd find new friends.
        shadowgovt 3y ago
        You seem to be assuming that my friends were the ones who were doing the drunk driving, not the ones in the other lane of traffic when the drunk driver swerved. In truth, they were both. I've known people who drove drunk and hurt others and I've known people who drove drunk and have been hurt and I know people who didn't drive drunk and were hurt by a drunk driver. It's a systemic problem and requires a systemic solution. Personal responsibility is the can we kick when we're unwilling to face the need to change incentives and structures.
        boondoggle16 3y ago
        Myself and my friends have personal responsibility already :shrug: If I found out a friend drove drunk, I'd berate the hell out of them and shame them. What a dangerous, selfish thing to do.
- fluster 3y ago
  You do realize fire spreads, right?
- veidr 3y ago
  Funny thing about fires, though: they often forget to stop burning when they get to the kids' bedroom upstairs, or the wall of the nice old granny next door...
  - boondoggle16 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - zymhan 3y ago
      You are an awful human being.
    - redwall_hp 3y ago
      Not only is eugenics bunk, but those who support it are the worst kind of trash.
scrlk 3y ago
Happy to be challenged on these numbers, as this isn't within my field of knowledge: * UK government value of prevented fatality: £2M [0] * UK government value of a quality-adjusted life-year for a single person: £70k -> ~£192 per day [1] [0] https://www.lse.ac.uk/PBS/assets/documents/Estimating-the-monetary-value-of-the-deaths-prevented-from-the-UK-Covid-19-lockdown-when-it-was-decided-upon-and-the-value-of-flattening-the-curve-June-2020.pdf https://www.lse.ac.uk/PBS/assets/documents/Estimating-the-mo... [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-green-book-appraisal-and-evaluation-in-central-governent/the-green-book-2020#a1-non-market-valuation-and-unmonetisable-values https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-green-book-ap...

RetpolineDrama 3y ago

It's likely worse than that, because I suspect this study is biased towards flame retardants being effective. It is true in a very narrow range of conditions a flame retardant can prevent combustion, but it's like an airbag that will only deploy for impacts between 15 and 17 MPH. In real world circumstances with real world combustion sources they don't make a difference.