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I understood that actual fasting was pretty much a poor people thing for catholics at least. i.e. That rich lords/merchants would just pay some repentance fee t

I understood that actual fasting was pretty much a poor people thing for catholics at least. i.e. That rich lords/merchants would just pay some repentance fee to their local church and could eat whatever they wanted (except for Good Friday)?

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Is that what the Calvinists have been telling you?
groovy2shoes 3y ago
It depends on time period. Indulgences weren't things that were for sale before the High Middle Ages, and then their sale was controversial. It was part of the motivation of the Protestant movement, and much curtailed during the Catholic Counter-reformation. And then there absolutely were some (many, maybe) nobles and merchants who were genuinely devout. Even emperors, like Louis the Pious. I'd imagine they tried a little harder.
anon291 3y ago
I mean... there is no 'one thing' any Catholic has done. There have been faithful Catholic Lords/Monarchs, and there have been not-so-faithful ones. Making blanket statements like 'actual fasting was pretty much a poor people thing' is not really a good description. Fasting is really something only the rich can do anyway, since if you're already poor... you're not missing much. There have been very faithful Catholic noble families (the Habsburgs come to mind -- many are still quite faithful today!) and they certainly did the normal fasting. That being said, I've never heard of replacing the fasting days with a 'repentance fee'. I'm not going to say it's never happened because there have been billions of Catholics, and probably millions of priests so maybe someone did that somewhere. However, under normal Catholic doctrine it's impossible to pay to repent. God's mercy is freely given without money.
jschveibinz 3y ago
[flagged]
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Anyway, that's not how indulgences work. They aren't a matter of "gain this indulgence and I get to indulge in something that's normally a sin." Since fasting and abstinence are a matter of Church Law and not Divine Law, the practices can be the subject of a dispensation or commutation by an authority such as the pastor. For example, on St. Patrick's Day in these United States, when it falls on a Friday (as it did this year) it's customary for bishops to grant dispensations for the faithful to enjoy corned beef, or a commutation, to pray the Rosary and then enjoy corned beef (or pork tempura). Whether any given pastor could be influenced by the money from a "rich lord/merchant" is left as an exercise for the reader, but if practically all his parishioners are tithing and paying his salary anyway, then what can you do?

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago

Is that what the Calvinists have been telling you?

groovy2shoes 3y ago

It depends on time period. Indulgences weren't things that were for sale before the High Middle Ages, and then their sale was controversial. It was part of the motivation of the Protestant movement, and much curtailed during the Catholic Counter-reformation. And then there absolutely were some (many, maybe) nobles and merchants who were genuinely devout. Even emperors, like Louis the Pious. I'd imagine they tried a little harder.

anon291 3y ago

I mean... there is no 'one thing' any Catholic has done. There have been faithful Catholic Lords/Monarchs, and there have been not-so-faithful ones. Making blanket statements like 'actual fasting was pretty much a poor people thing' is not really a good description. Fasting is really something only the rich can do anyway, since if you're already poor... you're not missing much. There have been very faithful Catholic noble families (the Habsburgs come to mind -- many are still quite faithful today!) and they certainly did the normal fasting. That being said, I've never heard of replacing the fasting days with a 'repentance fee'. I'm not going to say it's never happened because there have been billions of Catholics, and probably millions of priests so maybe someone did that somewhere. However, under normal Catholic doctrine it's impossible to pay to repent. God's mercy is freely given without money.

jschveibinz 3y ago

[flagged]

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago

Anyway, that's not how indulgences work. They aren't a matter of "gain this indulgence and I get to indulge in something that's normally a sin." Since fasting and abstinence are a matter of Church Law and not Divine Law, the practices can be the subject of a dispensation or commutation by an authority such as the pastor. For example, on St. Patrick's Day in these United States, when it falls on a Friday (as it did this year) it's customary for bishops to grant dispensations for the faithful to enjoy corned beef, or a commutation, to pray the Rosary and then enjoy corned beef (or pork tempura). Whether any given pastor could be influenced by the money from a "rich lord/merchant" is left as an exercise for the reader, but if practically all his parishioners are tithing and paying his salary anyway, then what can you do?