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I do not think it is possible to use rust on a commetcial airplane, above DAL E. See the DO-178(B) 11.8 a. "For a programming language, reference the data that

I do not think it is possible to use rust on a commetcial airplane, above DAL E. See the DO-178(B) 11.8 a. "For a programming language, reference the data that unambigously defines the syntax, the control behaviour, the data behaviour and side-effects of the language". If the language has no standard, like rust, you have to essentially create a standard. Afaik rust has no documentation which satisfies those requirements in any way.

steveklabnik 3y ago
I don't think that we're understanding each other, so I'm going to leave it for this post. But this supports what I am saying. This does not say "For a programming language, it must have an ISO standard, and the implementation must be in full compliance with the standard." > Afaik rust has no documentation which satisfies those requirements in any way. That is correct, Rust does not. Ferrocene does. And that's perfectly fine according to the requirements.
- constantcrying 3y ago
  >Ferrocene does. Is there FAA/EASA certified rust SW on a commercial airplane above DAL E? If not ferrocene potentially does. >For a programming language, it must have an ISO standard Which is also not what I am saying. It is obviously not important that it is an ISO standard (the DO certainly has no such Requirement), but you need some documentation which specifies the language. For C/C++ that is trivial, as it is standardized, for rust it isn't. I fully agree that you can conform to the DO by having a company like Ferrocene which provides that documentation. And that has a compiler toolchain which states how it complies with the specification. And I am glad that they are doing this, as this is a step in the right direction.
  - steveklabnik 3y ago
    I am glad that we are in agreement. Your final paragraphs are what I have been saying, in response to you saying "I do not see how you could get a language without a standard into an aircraft." > Is there FAA/EASA certified rust SW on a commercial airplane above DAL E? So, I don't work in the industry, so I am not 100% sure. What I do know is this: https://www.lynx.com/press-releases/rust-compiler-support https://www.lynx.com/press-releases/rust-compiler-support > Lynx Software Technologies (Lynx) the leader in delivering solutions for the Mission Critical Edge, today announced that its LynxOS-178 operating system and LynxElement unikernel will include support for Rust... LynxOS-178 is a native POSIX, hard real-time partitioning operating system developed and certified to FAA DO-178C DAL A safety standards. So the interest is there, at least, but given that Ferrocene is currently only qualified for ISO 26262 and IEC 61508, with DO-178C, ISO 21434, and IEC 62278 being listed as "in the future," I am guessing that's something desired, but not true yet. > If not ferrocene potentially does. Yes, to be clear I meant conceptually, in a way that the Rust Project does not, and I would be willing to bet money that it never will. Not that it has passed that bar presently.

steveklabnik 3y ago

I don't think that we're understanding each other, so I'm going to leave it for this post. But this supports what I am saying. This does not say "For a programming language, it must have an ISO standard, and the implementation must be in full compliance with the standard." > Afaik rust has no documentation which satisfies those requirements in any way. That is correct, Rust does not. Ferrocene does. And that's perfectly fine according to the requirements.

constantcrying 3y ago
>Ferrocene does. Is there FAA/EASA certified rust SW on a commercial airplane above DAL E? If not ferrocene potentially does. >For a programming language, it must have an ISO standard Which is also not what I am saying. It is obviously not important that it is an ISO standard (the DO certainly has no such Requirement), but you need some documentation which specifies the language. For C/C++ that is trivial, as it is standardized, for rust it isn't. I fully agree that you can conform to the DO by having a company like Ferrocene which provides that documentation. And that has a compiler toolchain which states how it complies with the specification. And I am glad that they are doing this, as this is a step in the right direction.
- steveklabnik 3y ago
  I am glad that we are in agreement. Your final paragraphs are what I have been saying, in response to you saying "I do not see how you could get a language without a standard into an aircraft." > Is there FAA/EASA certified rust SW on a commercial airplane above DAL E? So, I don't work in the industry, so I am not 100% sure. What I do know is this: https://www.lynx.com/press-releases/rust-compiler-support https://www.lynx.com/press-releases/rust-compiler-support > Lynx Software Technologies (Lynx) the leader in delivering solutions for the Mission Critical Edge, today announced that its LynxOS-178 operating system and LynxElement unikernel will include support for Rust... LynxOS-178 is a native POSIX, hard real-time partitioning operating system developed and certified to FAA DO-178C DAL A safety standards. So the interest is there, at least, but given that Ferrocene is currently only qualified for ISO 26262 and IEC 61508, with DO-178C, ISO 21434, and IEC 62278 being listed as "in the future," I am guessing that's something desired, but not true yet. > If not ferrocene potentially does. Yes, to be clear I meant conceptually, in a way that the Rust Project does not, and I would be willing to bet money that it never will. Not that it has passed that bar presently.