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> It is simply far, far easier for a newbie to see a computer generate 1 / 3 / 5 slightly-different attempts to solve a specific problem they have, and then to
by SanderNL 3y ago
> It is simply far, far easier for a newbie to see a computer generate 1 / 3 / 5 slightly-different attempts to solve a specific problem they have, and then to pattern match sufficiently to be able to solve the problem themselves, than it is to muddle around by yourself with it for hours and hours with no end in sight.
That's because it is easier. Multiple choice is easier than open questions.
It's also a good way to not really grasp anything deeply.
- dgb23 3y agoBut you don’t need to grasp anything deeply. You want to create something small and get a little bit of feedback quickly. When we teach math to children we don’t start with algebraic structures and proofs. We give them simple recipes. Later we show them problems that the recipes can’t solve and dig deeper. „By the way, the thing we did last year, it actually works like this…“
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago> When we teach math to children we don’t start with algebraic structures and proofs. We give them simple recipes. This is not mathematics, but arithmetic/calculating. When one starts teaching not-children-anymore mathematics (typically at the university), one indeed starts with something of the kind of algebraic structures and proofs.
- dgb23 3y agoThe GP mentioned that their wife is entirely new to programming but starting a CS degree. She will certainly learn the deeper concepts in university, but catching up with coding quickly, even in a shallow manner, is super beneficial. I think it's a huge plus.
- zero_shift 3y agoI don't mean to neg anyone, but will someone pick up the fundamentals, if they can keep leaning on a chatbot?
- insanitybit 3y agoIf they want to
- ModernMech 3y agoAnyone can learn anything if they put their mind to it. Sure. But the question is: does it scale?
- insanitybit 3y agoSchool has always been exactly the same way. Students who want to learn will learn. Students who do not will not. ChatGPT changes nothing for the latter, it is a tool for the former.
- ModernMech 3y agoAs a teacher, I have to tell you this is 100% wrong. Well it’s right, but you can turn a student from one who doesn’t want to learn into one who does. You can absolutely motivate unwilling or uncooperative students to learn. I have done it many times.
- insanitybit 3y agoI'm not saying you can't switch between being one of those students, that's a whole other thing.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dgb23 3y agoIt's like learning from docs examples (guides), tutorials, stack overflow questions etc. But on steroids. We all have learned this way and still do when we quickly want to grasp the surface level. There's nothing wrong with that.
- SanderNL 3y agoI agree with this. I was a bit blunt. Each situation is different. Superficial learning might be all you need depending on the circumstances. I still think it’s better to learn without too much tooling of any kind, but that’s a topic for another day.
- messe 3y agoArithmetic is very much a part of mathematics, it seems bizarre to me to argue otherwise. It may very well be a trivial and uninteresting part of mathematics compared to the rest, but it’s still mathematics nonetheless.
- _aavaa_ 3y agoTheir disagreement is that arithmetic is a part of mathematics, rather than being all of mathematics.
- golergka 3y ago> When we teach math to children we don’t start with algebraic structures and proofs. Depends. In my high school, math was tought not by telling us the proofs, but by asking us to provide them.
- SanderNL 3y agoTrue, but that’s not a good comparison. If we would compare this with arithmetic it would be like handing out a calculator and claiming this is way faster without “muddling around” (also known as “learning things”). You teach programming by giving simple assignments, not by handing out “calculators”.
- lsaferite 3y ago> It's also a good way to not really grasp anything deeply. Having recently done a screenshare with a fresh CS grad as they developed a simple program and seen how much Copilot was doing for them, I was both impressed and appalled. Yes, it's able to do a ton of that simple stuff, but this new grad has no idea _why_ it's doing what it's doing. They are more concerned with getting it done quickly due to not working on the problem early enough (that's a whole other issue). It genuinely concerns me for the next generation of CS grads and how well they are going to understand the systems they are building. They are already coming out of school unprepared for the professional development world, this is just going to highly exacerbate the problems.
- horns4lyfe 3y agoWhen hiring is done via arcane coding exams, ya, that’s what they are concerned with.
- lsaferite 3y agoDid I say anything about hiring or arcane code exams? This fresh grad happens to already be working for us and I was mentoring him.
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y agoI didn't say "seems" easier, I also said it is easier. There is no disagreement on this fact.