3 ms·

Everybody has heard of MS-DOS, but Microsoft’s backport to 8-bit systems is more obscure. Since MS-DOS was practically a CP/M clone for 16-bit computers, Micro

by pavlov 3y ago

Everybody has heard of MS-DOS, but Microsoft’s backport to 8-bit systems is more obscure. Since MS-DOS was practically a CP/M clone for 16-bit computers, Microsoft realized they could port it to 8-bit and it would be a binary-compatible cleanroom CP/M clone. And that’s what they did. It was sold as a standard for Japanese home computers — MSX, a predecessor of Xbox in both nomenclature and target market. The person tasked with creating this 8-bit port was Tim Paterson, the original creator of MS-DOS. Usually the story of IBM PC and Microsoft paints Paterson as a victim of Gates’s licensing machinations, but this MSX-DOS episode shows he continued to have a profitable relationship with Microsoft: ’On 10 August 1983, Paul Allen called Tim Paterson, original author of 86-DOS and MS-DOS 1.x, asking him to do a "Z80 version of MS-DOS" for the MSX standard. At the time, Paterson was busy trying to get the first product of his startup Falcon Systems ready to go, so he suggested a few other developers, but Allen said he had already asked. Allen was in a hurry to get it done and nobody else could meet his timeline. Allen and Paterson finally agreed, and on 17 August, they signed an agreement to do "Z80 MS-DOS 1.25" for US$100,000 and the rights for Paterson's company to distribute MS-DOS 2.0, 2.5, and 3.0 with a hardware product without royalty.’

prox 3y ago
MSX was not a Japanese standard for home computers, although it was the home turf and simply was the most successful there. MSX was meant as a worldwide standard to replace the then current crop of computers with a interchangeable standard. (Atari and C64) were closed technologies.
- Pamar 3y ago
  That's how I remember it, too...
- Inhibit 3y ago
  Right. It was also popular in some Arabic language countries and South America at the very least. Probably more correct to say it was a computer standard launched in Japan.
  - pier25 3y ago
    Also in Europe. I wrote my first lines of BASIC code on one as a kid.
  - gallier2 3y ago
    Philips was a big proponent of MSX.
- cubefox 3y ago
  Was MSX a standard similar to IBM Compatible?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Kind of, MSX was designed as a standard for 8 bit computers, while IBM compatible happened by accident.
  - prox 3y ago
    It was certainly marketed and envisioned as an international standard to have interoperability. Most external devices (mostly ROMs) could work between brands. But remember PCS were for businesses until about the early 90s when games became more popular as the decade rolled on and PCs became affordable as well. IBM compatible was more a necessity for other brands to sell their PC as compatible for businesses, so it became a standard by popularity, not from a top to bottom decision. People at home bought home computers roughly in the 80s.
    - cout 3y ago
      I think the games became more popular because the hardware became cheaper and more capable. Before the early-to-mid 90s a PC or compatible might cost $2000, outside the budget for a lot of families. Buying a computer just for games didn't make sense when a specialized game system was so much cheaper.
smokel 3y ago
In The Netherlands, the MSX was produced by Philips. Before that, there was the Philips P2000, which also had a Z80 processor and had a BASIC ROM jointly developed by Philips and Microsoft. I wonder if there is overlap in the code? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philips_P2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philips_P2000
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
glimshe 3y ago
I don't agree with your interpretation of MSX being a XBOX predecessor in any way, especially in target market. It was a standard largely adopted for home and business computers that could run arbitrary code and, despite the strong game library, it wasn't meant for games. In many countries it was extensively used for business applications by small businesses and independent professionals due to the decent specs and low cost.
- esrauch 3y ago
  I think the Xbox reference from op was just about the naming scheme of appending an X; it's all "Xbox one x", Xbox series x" etc. Not in terms of the software itself being a natural predecessor of Xbox.
  - hahajk 3y ago
    I believe Xbox is named that because it was originally, tragically, named the "DirectX Box". DirectX had the X because it was a combination of several APIs, all called DirectPlay, DirectSound, etc. But perhaps in a larger sense, maybe Microsoft just has a fetish for the letter.
justsomehnguy 3y ago
> Usually the story of IBM PC and Microsoft paints Paterson as a victim of Gates’s licensing machinations Slight offtopic: I'm always amused by 'Gates had nothing [aside the money from his parents] and M$ was successful only because he ripped Paterson' story. When I point to what MS already did by then I only hear crickets. > The 1980 year-end sales total $8,000,000. The 1980 Calendar Year employee headcount totals 40 people. > Other products released in 1980: Basic Compiler 5.3, TRS-DOS COBOL and Basic, muLISP and muMATH, TRS-80 Editor/Assember, XMacro-86 Cross Assembler, COBOL-80 Compiler 4.0, BASIC Interpreter for Z8000, Olympic Decathlon (game), M/SORT, FORTRAN & COBOL for Apple II, RAMcard (memory expander for the Apple II) https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/shows/history/history-of-microsoft-1980 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/shows/history/history-of-m...
- bombcar 3y ago
  The real "trick" wasn't getting DOS licensed to give to IBM, it was getting IBM to allow them to sell it themselves.
  - kmeisthax 3y ago
    At the time it was assumed that other DOS licensees would be building their own architecture. There were several kinds of "DOS-compatible" computers, most notably the PC-98[0], which had MS-DOS and Windows ports but no IBM compatibility whatsoever. Several other companies would then try to clone the IBM PC; they all got shut down for copying the BIOS code. The PC clone market only kicked off once Compaq was able to write a legally distinct BIOS. Another part of the reason why Microsoft was able to sell IBM a nonexclusive license boils down to their existing business relationship. Microsoft was just their BASIC vendor and they sold BASIC to everyone. IBM wanted CP/M-86, but Digital Research was taking too long to ship it. Seattle Computer Products[1] was also making 8086-based computers but had no OS for them, so they wrote their own - QDOS. Microsoft was willing to buy QDOS and port it to the PC for IBM, which fixed IBM's biggest problem with the PC, so why wouldn't they take the license? In order for IBM to object to taking a nonexclusive DOS license, they'd have to both realize that the clone market was going to be huge, and that the IBM PC BIOS would not be enough protection against clones. Both of which were not at all certain when the IBM PC was under development. Remember, the whole point of the IBM PC was to put together something quickly because they were playing catch-up to Apple and Commodore, not to build a computing empire like IBM's enterprise business. [0] The machine Touhou started on. Also the machine so difficult to do animated graphics on that most developers made pornographic visual novels instead. Like to the point that the Japanese market would just assume PC games were porn. [1] A subsidiary of the SCP Foundation
garaetjjte 3y ago
>Usually the story of IBM PC and Microsoft paints Paterson as a victim of Gates’s licensing machinations I don't think that Tim Paterson is portrayed as a victim, but rather Seattle Computer Products owner Rob Brock. >Paul Allen negotiated an agreement with SCP owner Rod Brock in January, implying that Microsoft had a whole stable of customers eager to run 86-DOS. The deal would essentially allow Microsoft to act as middleman — or, if you like, retailer — in these transactions. For each customer to whom they sold a license for 86-DOS, they would pay SCP $10,000, or $15,000 if the license also included the source code. They would also pay SCP an initial fee of $10,000 to begin the agreement. [...] In reality, of course, Microsoft had no stable of eager licensees. They had just one, the biggest fish of all: IBM. Microsoft sold just one license under the agreement, acquiring IBM’s operating system for them complete with source for just $25,000. [...] Rod Brock at SCP was a disappointed man. The legion of 86-DOS licensees he had anticipated following the Microsoft deal hadn’t materialized, and now he had lost Paterson, the one software guy at his hardware-focused company, to Microsoft. [...] He started to shop 86-DOS around a bit, looking for someone willing to take over support in return for an exclusive license to it. Gates pounced immediately, offering SCP a much-needed $50,000 for the deal — with one crucial difference. He stipulated that Microsoft would not be buying an exclusive license, but would be buying the software itself, outright. They would then grant the exclusive license to SCP, essentially turning the deal on its head. [...] Computer Products straggled on for a few more years, but finally went under in 1985. Rod Brock did, however, still have one thing of immense value. You’ll remember that Brock had sold 86-DOS to Microsoft outright, but had received an exclusive license to it in return. With his company failing, he decided to cash out by selling that license on the open market to the highest bidder. [...] The whole thing devolved into a complicated legal battle, one of the first of many for Microsoft. In the end Brock did not sell his license, but he did receive a settlement check for $925,000 to walk away and leave well enough alone. https://www.filfre.net/2012/05/the-ibm-pc-part-3/ https://www.filfre.net/2012/05/the-ibm-pc-part-3/
- KingLancelot 3y ago
  [dead]

by pavlov 3y ago

prox 3y ago

MSX was not a Japanese standard for home computers, although it was the home turf and simply was the most successful there. MSX was meant as a worldwide standard to replace the then current crop of computers with a interchangeable standard. (Atari and C64) were closed technologies.

Pamar 3y ago
That's how I remember it, too...
Inhibit 3y ago
Right. It was also popular in some Arabic language countries and South America at the very least. Probably more correct to say it was a computer standard launched in Japan.
- pier25 3y ago
  Also in Europe. I wrote my first lines of BASIC code on one as a kid.
- gallier2 3y ago
  Philips was a big proponent of MSX.
cubefox 3y ago
Was MSX a standard similar to IBM Compatible?
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Kind of, MSX was designed as a standard for 8 bit computers, while IBM compatible happened by accident.
- prox 3y ago
  It was certainly marketed and envisioned as an international standard to have interoperability. Most external devices (mostly ROMs) could work between brands. But remember PCS were for businesses until about the early 90s when games became more popular as the decade rolled on and PCs became affordable as well. IBM compatible was more a necessity for other brands to sell their PC as compatible for businesses, so it became a standard by popularity, not from a top to bottom decision. People at home bought home computers roughly in the 80s.
  - cout 3y ago
    I think the games became more popular because the hardware became cheaper and more capable. Before the early-to-mid 90s a PC or compatible might cost $2000, outside the budget for a lot of families. Buying a computer just for games didn't make sense when a specialized game system was so much cheaper.

smokel 3y ago

In The Netherlands, the MSX was produced by Philips. Before that, there was the Philips P2000, which also had a Z80 processor and had a BASIC ROM jointly developed by Philips and Microsoft. I wonder if there is overlap in the code? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philips_P2000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philips_P2000

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

glimshe 3y ago

I don't agree with your interpretation of MSX being a XBOX predecessor in any way, especially in target market. It was a standard largely adopted for home and business computers that could run arbitrary code and, despite the strong game library, it wasn't meant for games. In many countries it was extensively used for business applications by small businesses and independent professionals due to the decent specs and low cost.

esrauch 3y ago
I think the Xbox reference from op was just about the naming scheme of appending an X; it's all "Xbox one x", Xbox series x" etc. Not in terms of the software itself being a natural predecessor of Xbox.
- hahajk 3y ago
  I believe Xbox is named that because it was originally, tragically, named the "DirectX Box". DirectX had the X because it was a combination of several APIs, all called DirectPlay, DirectSound, etc. But perhaps in a larger sense, maybe Microsoft just has a fetish for the letter.

justsomehnguy 3y ago

> Usually the story of IBM PC and Microsoft paints Paterson as a victim of Gates’s licensing machinations Slight offtopic: I'm always amused by 'Gates had nothing [aside the money from his parents] and M$ was successful only because he ripped Paterson' story. When I point to what MS already did by then I only hear crickets. > The 1980 year-end sales total $8,000,000. The 1980 Calendar Year employee headcount totals 40 people. > Other products released in 1980: Basic Compiler 5.3, TRS-DOS COBOL and Basic, muLISP and muMATH, TRS-80 Editor/Assember, XMacro-86 Cross Assembler, COBOL-80 Compiler 4.0, BASIC Interpreter for Z8000, Olympic Decathlon (game), M/SORT, FORTRAN & COBOL for Apple II, RAMcard (memory expander for the Apple II) https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/shows/history/history-of-microsoft-1980 https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/shows/history/history-of-m...

bombcar 3y ago
The real "trick" wasn't getting DOS licensed to give to IBM, it was getting IBM to allow them to sell it themselves.
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  At the time it was assumed that other DOS licensees would be building their own architecture. There were several kinds of "DOS-compatible" computers, most notably the PC-98[0], which had MS-DOS and Windows ports but no IBM compatibility whatsoever. Several other companies would then try to clone the IBM PC; they all got shut down for copying the BIOS code. The PC clone market only kicked off once Compaq was able to write a legally distinct BIOS. Another part of the reason why Microsoft was able to sell IBM a nonexclusive license boils down to their existing business relationship. Microsoft was just their BASIC vendor and they sold BASIC to everyone. IBM wanted CP/M-86, but Digital Research was taking too long to ship it. Seattle Computer Products[1] was also making 8086-based computers but had no OS for them, so they wrote their own - QDOS. Microsoft was willing to buy QDOS and port it to the PC for IBM, which fixed IBM's biggest problem with the PC, so why wouldn't they take the license? In order for IBM to object to taking a nonexclusive DOS license, they'd have to both realize that the clone market was going to be huge, and that the IBM PC BIOS would not be enough protection against clones. Both of which were not at all certain when the IBM PC was under development. Remember, the whole point of the IBM PC was to put together something quickly because they were playing catch-up to Apple and Commodore, not to build a computing empire like IBM's enterprise business. [0] The machine Touhou started on. Also the machine so difficult to do animated graphics on that most developers made pornographic visual novels instead. Like to the point that the Japanese market would just assume PC games were porn. [1] A subsidiary of the SCP Foundation

garaetjjte 3y ago

>Usually the story of IBM PC and Microsoft paints Paterson as a victim of Gates’s licensing machinations I don't think that Tim Paterson is portrayed as a victim, but rather Seattle Computer Products owner Rob Brock. >Paul Allen negotiated an agreement with SCP owner Rod Brock in January, implying that Microsoft had a whole stable of customers eager to run 86-DOS. The deal would essentially allow Microsoft to act as middleman — or, if you like, retailer — in these transactions. For each customer to whom they sold a license for 86-DOS, they would pay SCP $10,000, or $15,000 if the license also included the source code. They would also pay SCP an initial fee of $10,000 to begin the agreement. [...] In reality, of course, Microsoft had no stable of eager licensees. They had just one, the biggest fish of all: IBM. Microsoft sold just one license under the agreement, acquiring IBM’s operating system for them complete with source for just $25,000. [...] Rod Brock at SCP was a disappointed man. The legion of 86-DOS licensees he had anticipated following the Microsoft deal hadn’t materialized, and now he had lost Paterson, the one software guy at his hardware-focused company, to Microsoft. [...] He started to shop 86-DOS around a bit, looking for someone willing to take over support in return for an exclusive license to it. Gates pounced immediately, offering SCP a much-needed $50,000 for the deal — with one crucial difference. He stipulated that Microsoft would not be buying an exclusive license, but would be buying the software itself, outright. They would then grant the exclusive license to SCP, essentially turning the deal on its head. [...] Computer Products straggled on for a few more years, but finally went under in 1985. Rod Brock did, however, still have one thing of immense value. You’ll remember that Brock had sold 86-DOS to Microsoft outright, but had received an exclusive license to it in return. With his company failing, he decided to cash out by selling that license on the open market to the highest bidder. [...] The whole thing devolved into a complicated legal battle, one of the first of many for Microsoft. In the end Brock did not sell his license, but he did receive a settlement check for $925,000 to walk away and leave well enough alone. https://www.filfre.net/2012/05/the-ibm-pc-part-3/ https://www.filfre.net/2012/05/the-ibm-pc-part-3/

KingLancelot 3y ago
[dead]