4 ms·

A Berenstain moment for me to learn that arigatō isn’t derived from obrigado.

jansan 3y ago
The eveidence presented on Wikipedia does not convice me. Even if arigatashi existed before contact with the Portugese, arigatō may have been a merger of obrigado and arigatashi.
- Tor3 3y ago
  On the contrary I feel the evidence is pretty much conclusive. arigatō comes from arigataku (an adverbial form), through a well-known "u-sound" change, as also explained on the page. Influence from Portuguese was not needed for that to happen. (And according to this page: https://selftaughtjapanese.com/2015/11/02/the-real-origin-of-arigatou-%E3%81%82%E3%82%8A%E3%81%8C%E3%81%A8%E3%81%86-japanese-for-thank-you/ https://selftaughtjapanese.com/2015/11/02/the-real-origin-of... the word was used in its "ou" form before the Portuguese even arrived in Japan - 1543)
- vore 3y ago
  I think the Wiktionary explanation is pretty detailed about the formation of arigatou: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%81%82%E3%82%8A%E3%81%8C%E3%81%A8%E3%81%86#Japanese https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%81%82%E3%82%8A%E3%81%8C%E... Given the inflection exists for other words, e.g. o-medetaku -> omedetou and o-hayaku -> ohayou, I'm pretty sure it's derived entirely from Japanese grammar. Modern Japanese -i adjectives formerly ended in -ki for the attributive form. This medial /k/ dropped out during the Muromachi period, both for the attributive form (-ki becoming -i) and for the adverbial form (-ku becoming -u). However, the adverbial form reverted back to -ku thereafter for most words, with the -u ending persisting in certain everyday set expressions, such as arigatō, おはよう (ohayō), or おめでとう (omedetō), and in hyper-formal speech.[4]
  - jansan 3y ago
    Also, no evidence of aigratou being used in the -u from before the Portuguese arrived. It may be true that the similarity is purely a coincidence, but the evidence is very weak, and maybe without Portuguese influence ariɡatau would be used only in some fringe cases.
    - Tor3 3y ago
      https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52018 https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52018 - it was used more than a century before the Portuguese arrived.
    - vore 3y ago
      Frankly, I don't think you understand Japanese morphology at all and are blowing a whole load of hot air. The inflection of arigatashi -> arigatou is quite straightforward and any adjective in Japanese can undergo the same inflection: - arigatashi -> arigatai: modernization - arigatai -> arigataku: adverbalization - arigataku -> arigatau -> arigatou: u-onbin It would perhaps also help your case if you didn't misspell "arigatou" twice in your post, either.
vharuck 3y ago
I'm not sold that it means "difficult to exist/rare", instead of "there is a difficulty." It makes sense to think of thanking somebody as also apologizing for having them deal with a difficulty.
- vore 3y ago
  It’s a straightforward form of 複合形容詞 (compound adjective), formed from verb stem + adjective. For instance: - 読み難い: yomu (to read) + nikui (difficult) -> yominikui: “difficult to read” - 分かり易い: wakaru (to understand) + yasui (easy) -> wakariyasui: “easy to understand” Applying this construction: - 有り難い: aru (to be) + katai (difficult) -> arigatai: literally “difficult to be”

The eveidence presented on Wikipedia does not convice me. Even if arigatashi existed before contact with the Portugese, arigatō may have been a merger of obrigado and arigatashi.

Tor3 3y ago
On the contrary I feel the evidence is pretty much conclusive. arigatō comes from arigataku (an adverbial form), through a well-known "u-sound" change, as also explained on the page. Influence from Portuguese was not needed for that to happen. (And according to this page: https://selftaughtjapanese.com/2015/11/02/the-real-origin-of-arigatou-%E3%81%82%E3%82%8A%E3%81%8C%E3%81%A8%E3%81%86-japanese-for-thank-you/ https://selftaughtjapanese.com/2015/11/02/the-real-origin-of... the word was used in its "ou" form before the Portuguese even arrived in Japan - 1543)
vore 3y ago
I think the Wiktionary explanation is pretty detailed about the formation of arigatou: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%81%82%E3%82%8A%E3%81%8C%E3%81%A8%E3%81%86#Japanese https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%81%82%E3%82%8A%E3%81%8C%E... Given the inflection exists for other words, e.g. o-medetaku -> omedetou and o-hayaku -> ohayou, I'm pretty sure it's derived entirely from Japanese grammar. Modern Japanese -i adjectives formerly ended in -ki for the attributive form. This medial /k/ dropped out during the Muromachi period, both for the attributive form (-ki becoming -i) and for the adverbial form (-ku becoming -u). However, the adverbial form reverted back to -ku thereafter for most words, with the -u ending persisting in certain everyday set expressions, such as arigatō, おはよう (ohayō), or おめでとう (omedetō), and in hyper-formal speech.[4]
- jansan 3y ago
  Also, no evidence of aigratou being used in the -u from before the Portuguese arrived. It may be true that the similarity is purely a coincidence, but the evidence is very weak, and maybe without Portuguese influence ariɡatau would be used only in some fringe cases.
  - Tor3 3y ago
    https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52018 https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=52018 - it was used more than a century before the Portuguese arrived.
  - vore 3y ago
    Frankly, I don't think you understand Japanese morphology at all and are blowing a whole load of hot air. The inflection of arigatashi -> arigatou is quite straightforward and any adjective in Japanese can undergo the same inflection: - arigatashi -> arigatai: modernization - arigatai -> arigataku: adverbalization - arigataku -> arigatau -> arigatou: u-onbin It would perhaps also help your case if you didn't misspell "arigatou" twice in your post, either.

vharuck 3y ago

I'm not sold that it means "difficult to exist/rare", instead of "there is a difficulty." It makes sense to think of thanking somebody as also apologizing for having them deal with a difficulty.

vore 3y ago
It’s a straightforward form of 複合形容詞 (compound adjective), formed from verb stem + adjective. For instance: - 読み難い: yomu (to read) + nikui (difficult) -> yominikui: “difficult to read” - 分かり易い: wakaru (to understand) + yasui (easy) -> wakariyasui: “easy to understand” Applying this construction: - 有り難い: aru (to be) + katai (difficult) -> arigatai: literally “difficult to be”