9 ms·

OpenStreetMap: Welcome Apple

364 points by sambeau 15y ago

sambeau 15y ago
"It’s also missing the necessary credit to OpenStreetMap’s contributors; we look forward to working with Apple to get that on there."
- sdoering 15y ago
  Why is that, that if Apple ignores credit/copyright (on a massive scale), that everybody loves their move. But if anybody would rip of an Apple product, the descendants of mighty Steve would come raining down with swords, axes and lawyers. Do you really think they did it, to support OSM. Or should I ask myself: "Where is the money?" The money, they do not have to pay Google anymore for the use of maps, while not crediting all these people, who supported OSM with their time and data-collecting.
  - ticks 15y ago
    Better to approach these things positively, than assume the worst case and risk creating resentment.
    - cbs 15y ago
      It's idealistic naivete to assume the best of everyone. But you're right, pretending to does make it more comfortable to operate in the world.
      - fennecfoxen 15y ago
        It can also make it expedient and more effective to operate in the real world. You can always say "we tried to approach them and work with them nicely" when you start making noise and going nuclear after they don't respond.
        adriand 15y ago
        Exactly, it's a very pragmatic move. After all, who has more lawyers? I think that people need to ask the question, "What do I hope to get out of this particular thing I'm about to do or say?" more often, as opposed to, "What am I justified in doing or saying?"
    - lotu 15y ago
      It is also unrealistic to assume the worst. It is more likely that attribution slipped though the cracks then it is that the Apple executives made a conscious decision to not include attribution in violation of the license.
  - LaGrange 15y ago
    I think the thing you might be witnessing here is what earthlings call "sarcasm," or maybe "a thinly veiled threat". I'm not entirely sure which one.
    - ktizo 15y ago
      The whole article is sarcasm laid on with a trowel by people who would probably be willing to chase all the media exposure and legal avenues available to them if Apple doesn't play nice from here on in. I would love to be a fly-on-the wall at the Apple meeting where they are forced to discuss this.
      - patrickod 15y ago
        It doesn't matter that Apple are a big company: they're still subject to the same rules as anyone else. This is by far the best way to have this issue resolved. Talking to people usually works a lot better than spamming them with legal documents.
  - ot 15y ago
    > Why is that, that if Apple ignores credit/copyright (on a massive scale), that everybody loves their move. It actually sounds very passive-aggressive to me.
    - sdoering 15y ago
      It is a mix of sarcasm and being feed up with big cooperations, screwing people who dedicate their own time, contributing to projects like OSM. So it might sound passive/aggressive. But wouldn't Apple be active/aggressive, if I would use their IP? Wouldn't they srew me for all I#m worth in court? I really don't know, but I wouldn't want to find out...
      - chc 15y ago
        What is your point? All I'm getting here is "Apple has an inhouse legal team."
  - sdoering 15y ago
    Well I was just wondering, how many voices are raised in defending a coop, that is known for its love of details, but forgets to mention these tiny little humans, that gathered the data in the first place. </sarcasm> It seems to me, that the Apple-Folks in Cupertino knew exactly, what they were doing. Who would sue Apple in a case like this anyway? Being from Germany, I have no idea, what the US-System would look like, but I believe, that suing Apple would mean, that every one of the contributors to OSM would have to sue on his/her own. And who would do that? Apple would calculate this. And even, if some people would walk this way, it might still be cheaper, than paying Google. Just my two cents.
    - brudgers 15y ago
      It seems to be driven by the sort of cost benefit analysis that one uses in logistics and elsewhere in business. With an army of IP lawyers at their disposal, a multi-billion dollar war chest, and an opponent running on a shoe-string, they can probably force OSM to go all-in if it comes to a lawsuit. The cynical part of me sees this as great publicity for iPhoto using the P.T. Barnum principle: "I don't care what they say about me, just make sure they spell my name right! " http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:P._T._Barnum http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:P._T._Barnum
  - orblivion 15y ago
    > Do you really think they did it, to support OSM. Or should I ask myself: "Where is the money?" To this very particular point I want to say, I think that large companies switching over to open technologies (edit: because of a profit motive) is a good thing. There needs to be a critical mass of people who value the openness per se in order for the sea change to happen, but ultimately it has to be because we make it more profitable to do so. I have zero expectations that a bunch of CEOs are going to start caring about any cause. If they switch over, it means we're succeeding in making it profitable, and I take that as a good sign.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- cicloid 15y ago
  Could the credits be embedded in the copyright for the software/eula/about in the App? The GIStiquette, seems to imply that there is almost always some copyright in the footer of the map. Could this copyright be embedded in the documentation (à la MIT) and still comply?
  - Angostura 15y ago
    I wondered that too. I don't have the app, but I would bet that Settings > General > About > Legal Notices would be the place to look?
    - ugh 15y ago
      I didn’t find anything. There is just the license agreement in that place which doesn’t seem to make any reference to OSM.
      - Someone 15y ago
        Did you look where (s)he indicated or at the right place? Settings-General-About lists (zillions) of licenses for projects used in iOS itself. If I understand this correctly, this is about the new iPhoto app. The Numbers and Pages apps have an 'Acknowledgements' page in the Settings app. Is that where you looked?
        ugh 15y ago
        Yep, that’s where I looked.
  - olt 15y ago
    Well, the license (CC-By-SA) requires that "The credit required by this Section 4(c) may be implemented in any reasonable manner;". So it doesn't need to be in the footer of the map, when there is no footer at all ("at least as prominent as the credits for the other contributing authors"), but I think the EULA/about not reasonable. But other people might disagree. There are even people that think the whole license is invalid and that it can be used as Public Domain, because the license is for creative work and not meant to be used for databases. This is the major reason OSM is changing to a different license right now (ODbL). Edit: See here http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Why_CC_BY-SA_is_Unsuitable http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Why_CC_BY-SA_is_Un...
- ElliotH 15y ago
  While I think it's quite messed up that a company as rich as Apple can't abide putting credits for people who have put some really good work in (I've even made small updates to OSM in my time) I do think that this is a very classy move by the OSM people, no ranting blog post or 'Apple stole our stuff', welcoming people presents a much better image of the project.
  - afterburner 15y ago
    Given the behaviour of Steve Jobs over the years, that attitude is probably embedded in the culture.
    - fennecfoxen 15y ago
      If Steve Jobs were still alive, he'd probably be pledging to deplete every last dollar of Apple's billions to run this stolen product into the ground. Who does OpenStreetMap think they are, anyway? ;)
      - fennecfoxen 15y ago
        After making this comment I've come back to my 'comments' page from time to time and watched its karma value gyrate between positive and negative. Do the down-mods represent people operating in good faith thinking I'm being mean-spirited, rude, and damaging the conversation? Or are they Apple fanboys upset by a little uncomfortable teasing at their expense? I can only speculate. :P
        Arelius 15y ago
        Personally, I just don't know what to make of your original comment, serious, or sarcastic, the clarity of what you are trying to get across just seems quite low.
        intended 15y ago
        Its obviously (to me) sarcastic. He is probably getting downvoted by people who 1) don't see it as sarcastic 2) Think it detracts from the conversation and encourages behavior of a similar sort.
- ecopoesis 15y ago
  Does Apple legally have to give credit? I thought facts couldn't be copyrighted (from the MLB vs fantasy baseball case - http://www.patentarcade.com/2007/11/case-cbc-v-major-league-baseball.html http://www.patentarcade.com/2007/11/case-cbc-v-major-league-...) and wouldn't map data qualify as facts?
  - georgemcbay 15y ago
    IANAL but from what I understand "facts" can't be copyrighted, but a collection of facts can be. eg. A business' address/phone number can't be copyrighted on its own, but a specific collection of them into a Yellow Pages can be.
    - ecopoesis 15y ago
      I wonder if that means Apple could take the individual facts from OSM, add a few in from their other sources, reorder the facts (or just build their own tiles from them since that's all they're presenting) and be okay legally?
      - Steko 15y ago
        Don't overthink it, they just forgot the attribution line. It doesn't cost them anything to add it, they just didn't put it in. It's not a big deal despite the 500 articles that have been written about it.
    - rcfox 15y ago
      This isn't true in Canada. http://www.lmlaw.ca/copyright_raw_data.pdf http://www.lmlaw.ca/copyright_raw_data.pdf "...the selection or arrangement of data only results in a protected compilation if the end result qualifies as an original intellectual creation." (This actually saved me in university when the school wanted to charge me with copyright violation after I scraped their job database to make it easier to work with.)
      - veyron 15y ago
rmc 15y ago
There are some licence and copyright matters to be dealt with, but it's good to see another company switch to OpenStreetMap
tseabrooks 15y ago
It feels a bit silly to fawn over map tiles... and I'll probably be accused of being an "Apple Fanboy"... But I'll be damned if those aren't some gorgeous tiles. Hopefully, this signals apple will move away from google for the built in maps app and provide something superior themselves with something comparable to the kick ass turn by turn in the current Android devices.
- randallsquared 15y ago
  One of these is far nicer and clearer than the other: http://alastaira.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/image3.png http://alastaira.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/image3.png http://alastaira.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/image4.png http://alastaira.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/image4.png Apple's version comes up really lacking in comparison to the default OSM one, which I would call gorgeous, personally.
  - dochtman 15y ago
    Meh. I love what OSM is doing, but IMO their tile style doesn't hold a candle to Google's (but then I dislike Apple's style here, as well).
    - lbotos 15y ago
      Anyone can make their own tiles with things like tilemill (http://mapbox.com/tilemill/ http://mapbox.com/tilemill/)
  - tseabrooks 15y ago
    I find the OSM one to be way way to busy. I think the Google tiles provide better information clarity + attractiveness value. However, I still maintain those new apple tiles are gorgeous, the way an antique map is gorgeous. I never claimed it provided more information; It's clearly providing less information. But aesthetics and function are separate vectors.
  - RandallBrown 15y ago
    OSM is trying to give you directions, Apple is trying to show you the general area of where a photo was taken. I like that Apple is throwing away some of the information to make it look a little nicer. In a map app though, this would be stupid.
Shank 15y ago
I thought someone compared the terrain with OSM and in certain locations it differs? Edit: They're apparently combining map data in some places.
- rmc 15y ago
  OSM doesn't have "terrain" (as in hill shading and mountain slopes), but it does have streets and roads. Apple and OSM match up in lots of places. Apple are not using OSM in USA (maybe canada, i dunno), but are definitly using it outside there.
  - ZeroGravitas 15y ago
    OSM does have terrain, just not in the default map render (which includes most hand-editible data to aid contributers but is often assumed to be the single intended end product). For elevation they re-use SRTM data (and other sources) to create maps with shaded slopes or contours: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SRTM http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SRTM http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shaded_relief_maps_using_mapnik http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shaded_relief_maps_using_... http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contours http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contours
- simonecortesi 15y ago
  Apple data is about one year old, this is the reason behind the spotted differences.
  - rmc 15y ago
    2 years old actually. Dated to about first week of April 2010 (based on "this road added on $DATE1 is there and the road added on $DATE2 isn't"). They are also using non-OSM data for the USA
5h 15y ago
This is (for me) a very timely validation of OSMs efforts, congrats to them!
dbkbali 15y ago
Great Apple, do no evil! How can we get better coverage for Asia?
- rmc 15y ago
  With OSM, just start mapping! It's a wiki! http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Beginners%27_guide http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Beginners%27_guide
  - toyg 15y ago
    That won't help Apple users though -- OP points out that the map data is stale (possibly two years old). It suggests there was a one-off dump at some point which was then used to build the service.
    - stephen_g 15y ago
      I doubt they would dump once and never update it... Eventually they'll need to update or the maps will be useless...
ugh 15y ago
Then congratulations Apple, for making a not so great map even worse. I can't really judge map quality in the US, but in Germany it sucks. Cities show up twice or are missing completely, labels are often small, unreadable and ugly. There is no consistency in the placement of lables. OSM has its fair share of inconsistencies but it's not that bad. The map is ok for what it is: Just for presentation inside of iPhoto, not for browsing or finding your way. I really hope that Apple doesn't plan to use this anywhere else and hat they just didn't go with Google because they can't customize their maps any way they want. (That missing credit is also shameful. I was looking everywhere inside of iPhoto but couldn't find it. Stuff like that sould at least be moderately easy to find.)
- NameNickHN 15y ago
  > but in Germany it sucks That's funny. A German client of mine specifically asked me to put an OpenStreetMap map right next to the Google Map because the details of OpenStreetMap were more precise. The client creates POI geo coordinates and uses the maps to find the best position for a poi.
  - ugh 15y ago
    I don't know what's going on there. OSM does have lots of detail for Germany and the problems with OSM are more general ones with the consistency of label placement and such. No map breaking stuff. Apple's tiles, however have more glaring mistakes (double labels, missing labels).
    - trin_ 15y ago
      its missing detail? at least in my city its much more detailed than gmaps
      - ugh 15y ago
        OSM or Apple's maps? OSM has crazy amounts of accurate detail for all cities I know in Germany. Apple's tiles have all the streets but not a lot of detail (probably by choice, nothing wrong with a sparser map, especially for the intended purpose) and the labels suck.
NameNickHN 15y ago
There are two things that Apple should do in order to avoid being viewed as a jerk once again. Put in the credit to OpenStreetMap and make a sizable donation to the OpenStreetMaps Foundation.
- sdoering 15y ago
  Not only credit to OSM. They would have to credit every single contributor (whos data is used).
  - rmc 15y ago
    Not really. Yes the Licence is CC-BY-SA, but "OpenStreetMap Contributors" is accepted form. (cf. http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright )
    - sdoering 15y ago
      Thanks for clarification.
- rmc 15y ago
  Apple must give attribution, not to be nice, but to avoid being guilty of copyright infringment.
chpolk 15y ago
With many of these larger map-based apps switching to OpenStreetMap, does anyone know any apps that receive a large amount of traffic that are currently/going to stay with Google Maps? And if so, how are they dealing with the charges (is it doable with a large amount of traffic without a significant source of revenue)?
MRonney 15y ago
The map for my hometown shows a train station that hasn't existed since the early 1900's.
- SoftwareMaven 15y ago
  If it's in the current OSM db, you should fix it. That's the great thing about OSM.
  - bergie 15y ago
    Yep, and it is even very easy: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/openstreetmap-s_user-generated_data_wins_when_there_are_changes/ http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/openstreetmap-s_user-generated_dat...
metel2 15y ago
I find Apple's new map to be strangely blurred and muddy. Some interesting styles at large scales - the pattern on the sea for instance. Very old fashioned-looking.
dutchbrit 15y ago
Someone at Apple definitely deserves a good spanking..
petsos 15y ago
I wonder if this is a temporary quick and dirty solution from Apple, pending a full-scale switch to their own maps in iOS 6.0.
- rmc 15y ago
  "Their own maps"? These are their maps. They are rendering them, they are hosting them. If you mean "their own map data", then that would be silly (& expensive) for Apple to either (a) drive a car around everywhere like Google Street View or (b) licence some third party mapping company. OSM is a good solution for Apple here.
  - forza 15y ago
    They did buy c3 technologies so they are probably up to something map related.
  - pkulak 15y ago
    I'm pretty sure they can afford to buy their own map data. What would be nice, though, is if they put the cash into fixing up OSM. Somewhat like what they did with KHTML.
  - skeletonjelly 15y ago
    Right. Because they don't have the cash to do these things. Expensive is relative.
dan1234 15y ago
Has it been confirmed that they're using OSM data or could the data be a product of their acquisition of Placebase (back in 2009)? Apple have actually been using this tile set for a while (it's used in the slide show mode of the current version of iPhoto for OS X).
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- rmc 15y ago
  Yes, it looks like OSM. There are small roads that I've mapped that are only on OSM, and are present on these maps. The data from OSM is from april 2010 (based on "The road added to OSM on $DATE1 is on these appple tiles, but the the road added on $DATE2 isn't") And yes, it looks like they've been using it for a while, no-one noticed till now.
  - megablast 15y ago
    > And yes, it looks like they've been using it for a while, no-one noticed till now. What do you mean by that? This is all from software released today, right?
    - dan1234 15y ago
      No, the same tile sets are used in iPhoto for OS X (part of the iLife suite) and some people claim they're used in Aperture (another photo editor but I've not used it). Where they have used it, they used it as hint as to where a photo was taken. The more detailed info panes still use google's maps.
    - rmc 15y ago
      It has come to prominence due to software released in the last few days, yes. But it was also used in other software.
deleted 15y ago
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nchlswu 15y ago
Could someone clarify using a service like OSM or Google Maps vs. using their data for map tiles? After the announcement I read tweets that basically said Apple was still using the Google Maps service, but the tiles were rendered by Apple? Based on what I'm reading it sounds like I misunderstood or am misremembering what I read.
- rmc 15y ago
  Some of Apple's software is still using Google Maps. Some is use tiles that Apple render and host, but based on OpenStreetMap data. Basically 2 years ago someone download the OSM data base (you can get it here http://planet.openstreetmap.org/ http://planet.openstreetmap.org/ ), and then they made up their own style.
Metapony 15y ago
Link is down. I'd ask for a google cache link, but the irony would make me implode.
- soult 15y ago
  I don't know if you posted this just for pointing out the irony, or if you really don't know: Retrieving the website from the Google Cache is as easy as searching for "cache:FULL_URL" with Google, there isn't even a results page or anything, you get directly to the cached page.
mokus 15y ago
In addition to the attribution, I'd like to know how they are going to comply with the "share-alike" part of the license. Where can I download "Apple maps"? According to the OSM FAQ, it should contain not only the OSM data but all other data they have merged in. It also seems like they should be required to release all the styling parameters and/or code needed to render the maps exactly as they appear in iPhoto - does anyone know how far CC-BY-SA reaches in a case like this? EDIT: for that last part, I guess they probably would be fine just releasing the whole thing pre-rendered.
- rmc 15y ago
  No-one really know how far CC goes, and that's one reason OSM is changing licence to a new Open Database Licence (ODbL)
  - oconnor0 15y ago
    Why wouldn't CC cover this?
    - sirclueless 15y ago
      Because they aren't distributing OSM data or a renderer, just images created from OSM data.
    - rmc 15y ago
      OSM is a database of geographic facts ("There is a road here. It is called Main Street. It is a primary road." etc.) Copyright of databases is non-obvious, so they are switching to a click through database EULA thingie.
      - aidenn0 15y ago
        Copyright of databases has on several occasions been overturned See Feist V. Rural "The constitutional requirement necessitates independent creation plus a modicum of creativity. Since facts do not owe their origin to an act of authorship, they are not original, and thus are not copyrightable. Although a compilation of facts may possess the requisite originality because the author typically chooses which facts to include, in what order to place them, and how to arrange the data so that readers may use them effectively, copyright protection extends only to those components of the work that are original to the author, not to the facts themselves. This fact/expression dichotomy severely limits the scope of protection in fact-based works." Whether or not the street data is copyrightable in light of this decision is definitely sketchy; the tiles etc. clearly are since they have some modicum of creativity.
deleted 15y ago
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X-Istence 15y ago
The Apple tiles are completely missing the street I live on ...
- sjg 15y ago
  Well add it into OSM ;)
robertgaal 15y ago
How can a project this cool have such an ugly website? It's shit like this OSM...
JVIDEL 15y ago
What is the word I'm looking for, "disappointed"? The lack of given credit to OSM doesn't seems like an accident, and I was looking forward to see what Apple was doing with that amazing mapping technology from SAAB. This is underwhelming to say the least, I was expecting much more from Apple.
- rmc 15y ago
  I presume the missing attribution was an accident. They cannot avoid it for much longer. It's legally required under the OSM copyright licence (CC-BY-SA)
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - jarek 15y ago
    Yeah. Apple isn't known for sweating the small stuff. Accident my ass! Incompetence, at best. If this was Microsoft or Oracle, not Apple, HN would be grabbing their pitchforks in three seconds.
    - Steko 15y ago
      If this was any other company not a single article would have been written about it in the first place.
      - fpgeek 15y ago
        Provably false: http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/08/microsoft-adds-openstreetmap-layer-to-bing-maps/ http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/08/microsoft-adds-openst...
        Steko 15y ago
        Expected an article about Microsoft not providing attribution to OSM but you didn't deliver. An exaggeration on my part perhaps but when you compare the number of articles written about this compared to the Google contractors that intentionally sabotaged OSM data the difference is staggering.
sharmi 15y ago
I see this as a favorable move to OSM. Hopefully the OSM's data would be enriched further considering the huge volume of people who would come in contact with OSM. OSM still lacks in a few places like middle east (Kuwait). But what was surprising was, wikimapia has several orders of magnitude better data for the same region compared to OpenStreetMap or other commercial map providers ( That includes google maps, yahoo maps etc )
deleted 15y ago
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phil 15y ago
I don't get it. Where's the evidence that these maps are based on OSM data versus, say, Navteq or TeleAtlas data? The tiles use terrain data that nobody thinks is from OSM, and when I look at North American cities, the street grids certainly don't seem to match any better than you'd expect. This post sounds pretty confident but they don't explain why.
- mitakas 15y ago
  Don't read between the lines: "The new iPhoto for iOS, however, uses Apple’s own map tiles – made from OpenStreetMap data (outside the US)."
  - phil 15y ago
    Ah, thanks -- I missed the (outside the US) bit.
- karlshea 15y ago
  One of the pingbacks on that article[1] shows that Apple's tiles have features (like lanes in a parking lot) that is only in OSM data, and that Apple is mis-rendering it. [1] http://alastaira.wordpress.com/2012/03/08/apple-maps-aka-apple-are-thieving-bastards/ http://alastaira.wordpress.com/2012/03/08/apple-maps-aka-app...
mrinterweb 15y ago
I can see a big migration away from Google Maps with Google's new pricing. Google's pricing can potentially get prohibitively expensive quickly. 25000 map views per day and $4/1000 map views that exceed the free 25000 map views. I am starting a new project that is focused around mapping. There is no way Google Maps will work for me with their pricing model. Open Street Maps is great.
stevenp 15y ago
We know that Apple is working on using their own map technology based on some of their acquisitions. Is it possible that OSM is just a stop-gap until their own maps are ready to go? Perhaps they didn't want to enter into another licensing agreement with Google if they're going to be ready to switch to their own solution later this year with iOS 6?
- rmc 15y ago
  Well these are already their maps. They have styled them, hosting them etc. They are just using the raw underlying OSM data. You have to get data from somewhere, and OSM is probably one of the best sources of data.
  - stevenp 15y ago
    Interesting. Does that mean that the companies like Placebase (which Apple acquired) weren't generating their own map data? I guess I just assumed that they were, but the small amount of info I can find on them now makes it seem unclear.
    - rmc 15y ago
      I don't know anything about Placebase (or the other map company Apple acquired at the same time). But from a practical standpoint, the world is really really bog. "Generating map data" isn't exactly easy, you don't "generate it", you have to "collect it". This isn't like generating a spell checking dictionary, or a a user generated world for a video game. You have to use reality. The half a million OSM users has been collecting this data for about 8 years now. Either with lots of GPSs or buy tracing satilite/aerial imagery from Yahoo and now Bing (not Google ☹). To generate it yourself, you need to reproduce all of that above. Google's Street View is a way to reproduce it, since you'll have GPS traces of all the roads, and photos of what the road is like (for street names). OSM covers twice or more times what Google Street View does, so that won't even get you there. The other option is to pay companies that have already done this, this is what Google Maps (et al.) mostly is, and is also what GPS/SatNav companies do. They get their data from either governmental sources if possible, or from tracing aerial imagery. All those options are expensive. Why not just use that free OSM data? This is why OSM was created. To provide a free source of map data to improve humanity.
Tycho 15y ago
Just when I thought they couldn't get any more evil.

364 points by sambeau 15y ago

"It’s also missing the necessary credit to OpenStreetMap’s contributors; we look forward to working with Apple to get that on there."

sdoering 15y ago
Why is that, that if Apple ignores credit/copyright (on a massive scale), that everybody loves their move. But if anybody would rip of an Apple product, the descendants of mighty Steve would come raining down with swords, axes and lawyers. Do you really think they did it, to support OSM. Or should I ask myself: "Where is the money?" The money, they do not have to pay Google anymore for the use of maps, while not crediting all these people, who supported OSM with their time and data-collecting.
- ticks 15y ago
  Better to approach these things positively, than assume the worst case and risk creating resentment.
  - cbs 15y ago
    It's idealistic naivete to assume the best of everyone. But you're right, pretending to does make it more comfortable to operate in the world.
    - fennecfoxen 15y ago
      It can also make it expedient and more effective to operate in the real world. You can always say "we tried to approach them and work with them nicely" when you start making noise and going nuclear after they don't respond.
      - adriand 15y ago
        Exactly, it's a very pragmatic move. After all, who has more lawyers? I think that people need to ask the question, "What do I hope to get out of this particular thing I'm about to do or say?" more often, as opposed to, "What am I justified in doing or saying?"
  - lotu 15y ago
    It is also unrealistic to assume the worst. It is more likely that attribution slipped though the cracks then it is that the Apple executives made a conscious decision to not include attribution in violation of the license.
- LaGrange 15y ago
  I think the thing you might be witnessing here is what earthlings call "sarcasm," or maybe "a thinly veiled threat". I'm not entirely sure which one.
  - ktizo 15y ago
    The whole article is sarcasm laid on with a trowel by people who would probably be willing to chase all the media exposure and legal avenues available to them if Apple doesn't play nice from here on in. I would love to be a fly-on-the wall at the Apple meeting where they are forced to discuss this.
    - patrickod 15y ago
      It doesn't matter that Apple are a big company: they're still subject to the same rules as anyone else. This is by far the best way to have this issue resolved. Talking to people usually works a lot better than spamming them with legal documents.
- ot 15y ago
  > Why is that, that if Apple ignores credit/copyright (on a massive scale), that everybody loves their move. It actually sounds very passive-aggressive to me.
  - sdoering 15y ago
    It is a mix of sarcasm and being feed up with big cooperations, screwing people who dedicate their own time, contributing to projects like OSM. So it might sound passive/aggressive. But wouldn't Apple be active/aggressive, if I would use their IP? Wouldn't they srew me for all I#m worth in court? I really don't know, but I wouldn't want to find out...
    - chc 15y ago
      What is your point? All I'm getting here is "Apple has an inhouse legal team."
- sdoering 15y ago
  Well I was just wondering, how many voices are raised in defending a coop, that is known for its love of details, but forgets to mention these tiny little humans, that gathered the data in the first place. </sarcasm> It seems to me, that the Apple-Folks in Cupertino knew exactly, what they were doing. Who would sue Apple in a case like this anyway? Being from Germany, I have no idea, what the US-System would look like, but I believe, that suing Apple would mean, that every one of the contributors to OSM would have to sue on his/her own. And who would do that? Apple would calculate this. And even, if some people would walk this way, it might still be cheaper, than paying Google. Just my two cents.
  - brudgers 15y ago
    It seems to be driven by the sort of cost benefit analysis that one uses in logistics and elsewhere in business. With an army of IP lawyers at their disposal, a multi-billion dollar war chest, and an opponent running on a shoe-string, they can probably force OSM to go all-in if it comes to a lawsuit. The cynical part of me sees this as great publicity for iPhoto using the P.T. Barnum principle: "I don't care what they say about me, just make sure they spell my name right! " http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:P._T._Barnum http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:P._T._Barnum
- orblivion 15y ago
  > Do you really think they did it, to support OSM. Or should I ask myself: "Where is the money?" To this very particular point I want to say, I think that large companies switching over to open technologies (edit: because of a profit motive) is a good thing. There needs to be a critical mass of people who value the openness per se in order for the sea change to happen, but ultimately it has to be because we make it more profitable to do so. I have zero expectations that a bunch of CEOs are going to start caring about any cause. If they switch over, it means we're succeeding in making it profitable, and I take that as a good sign.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
cicloid 15y ago
Could the credits be embedded in the copyright for the software/eula/about in the App? The GIStiquette, seems to imply that there is almost always some copyright in the footer of the map. Could this copyright be embedded in the documentation (à la MIT) and still comply?
- Angostura 15y ago
  I wondered that too. I don't have the app, but I would bet that Settings > General > About > Legal Notices would be the place to look?
  - ugh 15y ago
    I didn’t find anything. There is just the license agreement in that place which doesn’t seem to make any reference to OSM.
    - Someone 15y ago
      Did you look where (s)he indicated or at the right place? Settings-General-About lists (zillions) of licenses for projects used in iOS itself. If I understand this correctly, this is about the new iPhoto app. The Numbers and Pages apps have an 'Acknowledgements' page in the Settings app. Is that where you looked?
      - ugh 15y ago
        Yep, that’s where I looked.
- olt 15y ago
  Well, the license (CC-By-SA) requires that "The credit required by this Section 4(c) may be implemented in any reasonable manner;". So it doesn't need to be in the footer of the map, when there is no footer at all ("at least as prominent as the credits for the other contributing authors"), but I think the EULA/about not reasonable. But other people might disagree. There are even people that think the whole license is invalid and that it can be used as Public Domain, because the license is for creative work and not meant to be used for databases. This is the major reason OSM is changing to a different license right now (ODbL). Edit: See here http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Why_CC_BY-SA_is_Unsuitable http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Why_CC_BY-SA_is_Un...
ElliotH 15y ago
While I think it's quite messed up that a company as rich as Apple can't abide putting credits for people who have put some really good work in (I've even made small updates to OSM in my time) I do think that this is a very classy move by the OSM people, no ranting blog post or 'Apple stole our stuff', welcoming people presents a much better image of the project.
- afterburner 15y ago
  Given the behaviour of Steve Jobs over the years, that attitude is probably embedded in the culture.
  - fennecfoxen 15y ago
    If Steve Jobs were still alive, he'd probably be pledging to deplete every last dollar of Apple's billions to run this stolen product into the ground. Who does OpenStreetMap think they are, anyway? ;)
    - fennecfoxen 15y ago
      After making this comment I've come back to my 'comments' page from time to time and watched its karma value gyrate between positive and negative. Do the down-mods represent people operating in good faith thinking I'm being mean-spirited, rude, and damaging the conversation? Or are they Apple fanboys upset by a little uncomfortable teasing at their expense? I can only speculate. :P
      - Arelius 15y ago
        Personally, I just don't know what to make of your original comment, serious, or sarcastic, the clarity of what you are trying to get across just seems quite low.
        intended 15y ago
        Its obviously (to me) sarcastic. He is probably getting downvoted by people who 1) don't see it as sarcastic 2) Think it detracts from the conversation and encourages behavior of a similar sort.
ecopoesis 15y ago
Does Apple legally have to give credit? I thought facts couldn't be copyrighted (from the MLB vs fantasy baseball case - http://www.patentarcade.com/2007/11/case-cbc-v-major-league-baseball.html http://www.patentarcade.com/2007/11/case-cbc-v-major-league-...) and wouldn't map data qualify as facts?
- georgemcbay 15y ago
  IANAL but from what I understand "facts" can't be copyrighted, but a collection of facts can be. eg. A business' address/phone number can't be copyrighted on its own, but a specific collection of them into a Yellow Pages can be.
  - ecopoesis 15y ago
    I wonder if that means Apple could take the individual facts from OSM, add a few in from their other sources, reorder the facts (or just build their own tiles from them since that's all they're presenting) and be okay legally?
    - Steko 15y ago
      Don't overthink it, they just forgot the attribution line. It doesn't cost them anything to add it, they just didn't put it in. It's not a big deal despite the 500 articles that have been written about it.
  - rcfox 15y ago
    This isn't true in Canada. http://www.lmlaw.ca/copyright_raw_data.pdf http://www.lmlaw.ca/copyright_raw_data.pdf "...the selection or arrangement of data only results in a protected compilation if the end result qualifies as an original intellectual creation." (This actually saved me in university when the school wanted to charge me with copyright violation after I scraped their job database to make it easier to work with.)
    - veyron 15y ago

rmc 15y ago

There are some licence and copyright matters to be dealt with, but it's good to see another company switch to OpenStreetMap

tseabrooks 15y ago

It feels a bit silly to fawn over map tiles... and I'll probably be accused of being an "Apple Fanboy"... But I'll be damned if those aren't some gorgeous tiles. Hopefully, this signals apple will move away from google for the built in maps app and provide something superior themselves with something comparable to the kick ass turn by turn in the current Android devices.

randallsquared 15y ago
One of these is far nicer and clearer than the other: http://alastaira.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/image3.png http://alastaira.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/image3.png http://alastaira.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/image4.png http://alastaira.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/image4.png Apple's version comes up really lacking in comparison to the default OSM one, which I would call gorgeous, personally.
- dochtman 15y ago
  Meh. I love what OSM is doing, but IMO their tile style doesn't hold a candle to Google's (but then I dislike Apple's style here, as well).
  - lbotos 15y ago
    Anyone can make their own tiles with things like tilemill (http://mapbox.com/tilemill/ http://mapbox.com/tilemill/)
- tseabrooks 15y ago
  I find the OSM one to be way way to busy. I think the Google tiles provide better information clarity + attractiveness value. However, I still maintain those new apple tiles are gorgeous, the way an antique map is gorgeous. I never claimed it provided more information; It's clearly providing less information. But aesthetics and function are separate vectors.
- RandallBrown 15y ago
  OSM is trying to give you directions, Apple is trying to show you the general area of where a photo was taken. I like that Apple is throwing away some of the information to make it look a little nicer. In a map app though, this would be stupid.

Shank 15y ago

I thought someone compared the terrain with OSM and in certain locations it differs? Edit: They're apparently combining map data in some places.

rmc 15y ago
OSM doesn't have "terrain" (as in hill shading and mountain slopes), but it does have streets and roads. Apple and OSM match up in lots of places. Apple are not using OSM in USA (maybe canada, i dunno), but are definitly using it outside there.
- ZeroGravitas 15y ago
  OSM does have terrain, just not in the default map render (which includes most hand-editible data to aid contributers but is often assumed to be the single intended end product). For elevation they re-use SRTM data (and other sources) to create maps with shaded slopes or contours: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SRTM http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/SRTM http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shaded_relief_maps_using_mapnik http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shaded_relief_maps_using_... http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contours http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contours
simonecortesi 15y ago
Apple data is about one year old, this is the reason behind the spotted differences.
- rmc 15y ago
  2 years old actually. Dated to about first week of April 2010 (based on "this road added on $DATE1 is there and the road added on $DATE2 isn't"). They are also using non-OSM data for the USA

5h 15y ago

This is (for me) a very timely validation of OSMs efforts, congrats to them!

dbkbali 15y ago

Great Apple, do no evil! How can we get better coverage for Asia?

rmc 15y ago
With OSM, just start mapping! It's a wiki! http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Beginners%27_guide http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Beginners%27_guide
- toyg 15y ago
  That won't help Apple users though -- OP points out that the map data is stale (possibly two years old). It suggests there was a one-off dump at some point which was then used to build the service.
  - stephen_g 15y ago
    I doubt they would dump once and never update it... Eventually they'll need to update or the maps will be useless...

ugh 15y ago

Then congratulations Apple, for making a not so great map even worse. I can't really judge map quality in the US, but in Germany it sucks. Cities show up twice or are missing completely, labels are often small, unreadable and ugly. There is no consistency in the placement of lables. OSM has its fair share of inconsistencies but it's not that bad. The map is ok for what it is: Just for presentation inside of iPhoto, not for browsing or finding your way. I really hope that Apple doesn't plan to use this anywhere else and hat they just didn't go with Google because they can't customize their maps any way they want. (That missing credit is also shameful. I was looking everywhere inside of iPhoto but couldn't find it. Stuff like that sould at least be moderately easy to find.)

NameNickHN 15y ago
> but in Germany it sucks That's funny. A German client of mine specifically asked me to put an OpenStreetMap map right next to the Google Map because the details of OpenStreetMap were more precise. The client creates POI geo coordinates and uses the maps to find the best position for a poi.
- ugh 15y ago
  I don't know what's going on there. OSM does have lots of detail for Germany and the problems with OSM are more general ones with the consistency of label placement and such. No map breaking stuff. Apple's tiles, however have more glaring mistakes (double labels, missing labels).
  - trin_ 15y ago
    its missing detail? at least in my city its much more detailed than gmaps
    - ugh 15y ago
      OSM or Apple's maps? OSM has crazy amounts of accurate detail for all cities I know in Germany. Apple's tiles have all the streets but not a lot of detail (probably by choice, nothing wrong with a sparser map, especially for the intended purpose) and the labels suck.

NameNickHN 15y ago

There are two things that Apple should do in order to avoid being viewed as a jerk once again. Put in the credit to OpenStreetMap and make a sizable donation to the OpenStreetMaps Foundation.

sdoering 15y ago
Not only credit to OSM. They would have to credit every single contributor (whos data is used).
- rmc 15y ago
  Not really. Yes the Licence is CC-BY-SA, but "OpenStreetMap Contributors" is accepted form. (cf. http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright )
  - sdoering 15y ago
    Thanks for clarification.
rmc 15y ago
Apple must give attribution, not to be nice, but to avoid being guilty of copyright infringment.

chpolk 15y ago

With many of these larger map-based apps switching to OpenStreetMap, does anyone know any apps that receive a large amount of traffic that are currently/going to stay with Google Maps? And if so, how are they dealing with the charges (is it doable with a large amount of traffic without a significant source of revenue)?

MRonney 15y ago

The map for my hometown shows a train station that hasn't existed since the early 1900's.

SoftwareMaven 15y ago
If it's in the current OSM db, you should fix it. That's the great thing about OSM.
- bergie 15y ago
  Yep, and it is even very easy: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/openstreetmap-s_user-generated_data_wins_when_there_are_changes/ http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/openstreetmap-s_user-generated_dat...

metel2 15y ago

I find Apple's new map to be strangely blurred and muddy. Some interesting styles at large scales - the pattern on the sea for instance. Very old fashioned-looking.

dutchbrit 15y ago

Someone at Apple definitely deserves a good spanking..

petsos 15y ago

I wonder if this is a temporary quick and dirty solution from Apple, pending a full-scale switch to their own maps in iOS 6.0.

rmc 15y ago
"Their own maps"? These are their maps. They are rendering them, they are hosting them. If you mean "their own map data", then that would be silly (& expensive) for Apple to either (a) drive a car around everywhere like Google Street View or (b) licence some third party mapping company. OSM is a good solution for Apple here.
- forza 15y ago
  They did buy c3 technologies so they are probably up to something map related.
- pkulak 15y ago
  I'm pretty sure they can afford to buy their own map data. What would be nice, though, is if they put the cash into fixing up OSM. Somewhat like what they did with KHTML.
- skeletonjelly 15y ago
  Right. Because they don't have the cash to do these things. Expensive is relative.

dan1234 15y ago

Has it been confirmed that they're using OSM data or could the data be a product of their acquisition of Placebase (back in 2009)? Apple have actually been using this tile set for a while (it's used in the slide show mode of the current version of iPhoto for OS X).

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
rmc 15y ago
Yes, it looks like OSM. There are small roads that I've mapped that are only on OSM, and are present on these maps. The data from OSM is from april 2010 (based on "The road added to OSM on $DATE1 is on these appple tiles, but the the road added on $DATE2 isn't") And yes, it looks like they've been using it for a while, no-one noticed till now.
- megablast 15y ago
  > And yes, it looks like they've been using it for a while, no-one noticed till now. What do you mean by that? This is all from software released today, right?
  - dan1234 15y ago
    No, the same tile sets are used in iPhoto for OS X (part of the iLife suite) and some people claim they're used in Aperture (another photo editor but I've not used it). Where they have used it, they used it as hint as to where a photo was taken. The more detailed info panes still use google's maps.
  - rmc 15y ago
    It has come to prominence due to software released in the last few days, yes. But it was also used in other software.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

nchlswu 15y ago

Could someone clarify using a service like OSM or Google Maps vs. using their data for map tiles? After the announcement I read tweets that basically said Apple was still using the Google Maps service, but the tiles were rendered by Apple? Based on what I'm reading it sounds like I misunderstood or am misremembering what I read.

rmc 15y ago
Some of Apple's software is still using Google Maps. Some is use tiles that Apple render and host, but based on OpenStreetMap data. Basically 2 years ago someone download the OSM data base (you can get it here http://planet.openstreetmap.org/ http://planet.openstreetmap.org/ ), and then they made up their own style.

Metapony 15y ago

Link is down. I'd ask for a google cache link, but the irony would make me implode.

soult 15y ago
I don't know if you posted this just for pointing out the irony, or if you really don't know: Retrieving the website from the Google Cache is as easy as searching for "cache:FULL_URL" with Google, there isn't even a results page or anything, you get directly to the cached page.

mokus 15y ago

In addition to the attribution, I'd like to know how they are going to comply with the "share-alike" part of the license. Where can I download "Apple maps"? According to the OSM FAQ, it should contain not only the OSM data but all other data they have merged in. It also seems like they should be required to release all the styling parameters and/or code needed to render the maps exactly as they appear in iPhoto - does anyone know how far CC-BY-SA reaches in a case like this? EDIT: for that last part, I guess they probably would be fine just releasing the whole thing pre-rendered.

rmc 15y ago
No-one really know how far CC goes, and that's one reason OSM is changing licence to a new Open Database Licence (ODbL)
- oconnor0 15y ago
  Why wouldn't CC cover this?
  - sirclueless 15y ago
    Because they aren't distributing OSM data or a renderer, just images created from OSM data.
  - rmc 15y ago
    OSM is a database of geographic facts ("There is a road here. It is called Main Street. It is a primary road." etc.) Copyright of databases is non-obvious, so they are switching to a click through database EULA thingie.
    - aidenn0 15y ago
      Copyright of databases has on several occasions been overturned See Feist V. Rural "The constitutional requirement necessitates independent creation plus a modicum of creativity. Since facts do not owe their origin to an act of authorship, they are not original, and thus are not copyrightable. Although a compilation of facts may possess the requisite originality because the author typically chooses which facts to include, in what order to place them, and how to arrange the data so that readers may use them effectively, copyright protection extends only to those components of the work that are original to the author, not to the facts themselves. This fact/expression dichotomy severely limits the scope of protection in fact-based works." Whether or not the street data is copyrightable in light of this decision is definitely sketchy; the tiles etc. clearly are since they have some modicum of creativity.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

X-Istence 15y ago

The Apple tiles are completely missing the street I live on ...

sjg 15y ago
Well add it into OSM ;)

robertgaal 15y ago

How can a project this cool have such an ugly website? It's shit like this OSM...

JVIDEL 15y ago

What is the word I'm looking for, "disappointed"? The lack of given credit to OSM doesn't seems like an accident, and I was looking forward to see what Apple was doing with that amazing mapping technology from SAAB. This is underwhelming to say the least, I was expecting much more from Apple.

rmc 15y ago
I presume the missing attribution was an accident. They cannot avoid it for much longer. It's legally required under the OSM copyright licence (CC-BY-SA)
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- jarek 15y ago
  Yeah. Apple isn't known for sweating the small stuff. Accident my ass! Incompetence, at best. If this was Microsoft or Oracle, not Apple, HN would be grabbing their pitchforks in three seconds.
  - Steko 15y ago
    If this was any other company not a single article would have been written about it in the first place.
    - fpgeek 15y ago
      Provably false: http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/08/microsoft-adds-openstreetmap-layer-to-bing-maps/ http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/08/microsoft-adds-openst...
      - Steko 15y ago
        Expected an article about Microsoft not providing attribution to OSM but you didn't deliver. An exaggeration on my part perhaps but when you compare the number of articles written about this compared to the Google contractors that intentionally sabotaged OSM data the difference is staggering.

sharmi 15y ago

I see this as a favorable move to OSM. Hopefully the OSM's data would be enriched further considering the huge volume of people who would come in contact with OSM. OSM still lacks in a few places like middle east (Kuwait). But what was surprising was, wikimapia has several orders of magnitude better data for the same region compared to OpenStreetMap or other commercial map providers ( That includes google maps, yahoo maps etc )

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

phil 15y ago

I don't get it. Where's the evidence that these maps are based on OSM data versus, say, Navteq or TeleAtlas data? The tiles use terrain data that nobody thinks is from OSM, and when I look at North American cities, the street grids certainly don't seem to match any better than you'd expect. This post sounds pretty confident but they don't explain why.

mitakas 15y ago
Don't read between the lines: "The new iPhoto for iOS, however, uses Apple’s own map tiles – made from OpenStreetMap data (outside the US)."
- phil 15y ago
  Ah, thanks -- I missed the (outside the US) bit.
karlshea 15y ago
One of the pingbacks on that article[1] shows that Apple's tiles have features (like lanes in a parking lot) that is only in OSM data, and that Apple is mis-rendering it. [1] http://alastaira.wordpress.com/2012/03/08/apple-maps-aka-apple-are-thieving-bastards/ http://alastaira.wordpress.com/2012/03/08/apple-maps-aka-app...

mrinterweb 15y ago

I can see a big migration away from Google Maps with Google's new pricing. Google's pricing can potentially get prohibitively expensive quickly. 25000 map views per day and $4/1000 map views that exceed the free 25000 map views. I am starting a new project that is focused around mapping. There is no way Google Maps will work for me with their pricing model. Open Street Maps is great.

stevenp 15y ago

We know that Apple is working on using their own map technology based on some of their acquisitions. Is it possible that OSM is just a stop-gap until their own maps are ready to go? Perhaps they didn't want to enter into another licensing agreement with Google if they're going to be ready to switch to their own solution later this year with iOS 6?

rmc 15y ago
Well these are already their maps. They have styled them, hosting them etc. They are just using the raw underlying OSM data. You have to get data from somewhere, and OSM is probably one of the best sources of data.
- stevenp 15y ago
  Interesting. Does that mean that the companies like Placebase (which Apple acquired) weren't generating their own map data? I guess I just assumed that they were, but the small amount of info I can find on them now makes it seem unclear.
  - rmc 15y ago
    I don't know anything about Placebase (or the other map company Apple acquired at the same time). But from a practical standpoint, the world is really really bog. "Generating map data" isn't exactly easy, you don't "generate it", you have to "collect it". This isn't like generating a spell checking dictionary, or a a user generated world for a video game. You have to use reality. The half a million OSM users has been collecting this data for about 8 years now. Either with lots of GPSs or buy tracing satilite/aerial imagery from Yahoo and now Bing (not Google ☹). To generate it yourself, you need to reproduce all of that above. Google's Street View is a way to reproduce it, since you'll have GPS traces of all the roads, and photos of what the road is like (for street names). OSM covers twice or more times what Google Street View does, so that won't even get you there. The other option is to pay companies that have already done this, this is what Google Maps (et al.) mostly is, and is also what GPS/SatNav companies do. They get their data from either governmental sources if possible, or from tracing aerial imagery. All those options are expensive. Why not just use that free OSM data? This is why OSM was created. To provide a free source of map data to improve humanity.

Tycho 15y ago

Just when I thought they couldn't get any more evil.