4 ms·

"Lying is wrong" is a non-sequitur - like West is to the left. It is morality for 5 year olds or Sam Harris. >Then what's the problem with AA? Not using it to

"Lying is wrong" is a non-sequitur - like West is to the left. It is morality for 5 year olds or Sam Harris. >Then what's the problem with AA? Not using it to compensate for structural disadvantages is being in the wrong in its case... AA fails on that criteria as well. It isn't compensating the people who were wronged and the burden falls on people didn't do the wrong. Poor asian immigrant gets kicked out so Harvard can virtue signal and put a black face on their web page and course catalog. Never mind that kid is a wealthy immigrant from Kenya. And to make it even worse, the AA admits do worse, drop out at higher rates, and drop down to lesser majors because many aren't academically competitive. They would have done better if they were matched on merit to schools.

joshuamorton 3y ago
Do you have data to back up the implicit claim you're making that dropping affirmative action will, all else equal, result in a larger number of lower-income people attending schools, and that affirmative action policies weren't aiding non-immigrant Blacks?
kelnos 3y ago
On the contrary, when California enacted a ban on AA in university admissions in 1996, enrollment of minorities plummeted. Sure, maybe some of them would have dropped out, and some may have changed majors, but at least they would have had the opportunity, and certainly some would have been able to take advantage of it.
- abduhl 3y ago
  It seems that the only demographics that plummeted were whites and Native Americans per https://edsource.org/2020/freshmen-enrollment-csu-and-uc-by-race-and-ethnicity/642182 https://edsource.org/2020/freshmen-enrollment-csu-and-uc-by-...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - alexeldeib 3y ago
    It varies by school. https://www.npr.org/2023/06/27/1184461214/examining-the-impact-of-californias-ban-on-affirmative-action-in-public-schools https://www.npr.org/2023/06/27/1184461214/examining-the-impa... > Berkeley and UCLA, the most selective public universities in the state, saw a declines in Black and Hispanic enrollment of about 40% immediately the year after the Proposition was implemented. There was no net change in black and Hispanic enrollment at less selective California universities because while some black and Hispanic students lost access to those schools because affirmative action ended, they also gained Black and Hispanic students from more selective schools like Berkeley and UCLA that those students could no longer get into. > seems like these very selective public universities in California just provided greater value to relatively disadvantaged Black and Hispanic students who came from lower-income neighborhoods, had poorer job networks, relatively less access to otherwise successful peers, and who were thus able to better take advantage of the resources provided by these super selective universities than the white and Asian students who took their places.
    - abduhl 3y ago
      Certainly, specific demographics can vary by school. But the OP said that enrollment of MINORITIES plummeted in the California university SYSTEM. Asians are minorities. There are more schools than UCLA and Cal. Moreover, we can examine the data directly at Berkeley and realize that the only demographic that has “plummeted” long term is whites. Immediate enrollment percentages may have dropped for black and Latino students but it has recovered and it seems like Berkeley has been able to somehow return to their previous highly consistent proportion of Latino and black students. UCLA is the same. It’s almost uncanny how the racial percentages at top schools stay so consistent over the years. https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/about-us/information-center/freshman-admissions-summary https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/about-us/information-...
vkou 3y ago
Fine. You think lying isn't always wrong. I don't care, it's not important, it's just an example. Pick literally any other action that you think is always wrong. I'll give you a counterexample where failing to do it is wrong. "Two wrongs don't make a right" is the 5-year old-level morality platitude that you should be turning your ire against. Because, as you're demonstrating, "Wrong" is entirely contextual. A 'wrong' that mitigates another wrong can make a right.

joshuamorton 3y ago

Do you have data to back up the implicit claim you're making that dropping affirmative action will, all else equal, result in a larger number of lower-income people attending schools, and that affirmative action policies weren't aiding non-immigrant Blacks?

kelnos 3y ago

On the contrary, when California enacted a ban on AA in university admissions in 1996, enrollment of minorities plummeted. Sure, maybe some of them would have dropped out, and some may have changed majors, but at least they would have had the opportunity, and certainly some would have been able to take advantage of it.

abduhl 3y ago
It seems that the only demographics that plummeted were whites and Native Americans per https://edsource.org/2020/freshmen-enrollment-csu-and-uc-by-race-and-ethnicity/642182 https://edsource.org/2020/freshmen-enrollment-csu-and-uc-by-...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- alexeldeib 3y ago
  It varies by school. https://www.npr.org/2023/06/27/1184461214/examining-the-impact-of-californias-ban-on-affirmative-action-in-public-schools https://www.npr.org/2023/06/27/1184461214/examining-the-impa... > Berkeley and UCLA, the most selective public universities in the state, saw a declines in Black and Hispanic enrollment of about 40% immediately the year after the Proposition was implemented. There was no net change in black and Hispanic enrollment at less selective California universities because while some black and Hispanic students lost access to those schools because affirmative action ended, they also gained Black and Hispanic students from more selective schools like Berkeley and UCLA that those students could no longer get into. > seems like these very selective public universities in California just provided greater value to relatively disadvantaged Black and Hispanic students who came from lower-income neighborhoods, had poorer job networks, relatively less access to otherwise successful peers, and who were thus able to better take advantage of the resources provided by these super selective universities than the white and Asian students who took their places.
  - abduhl 3y ago
    Certainly, specific demographics can vary by school. But the OP said that enrollment of MINORITIES plummeted in the California university SYSTEM. Asians are minorities. There are more schools than UCLA and Cal. Moreover, we can examine the data directly at Berkeley and realize that the only demographic that has “plummeted” long term is whites. Immediate enrollment percentages may have dropped for black and Latino students but it has recovered and it seems like Berkeley has been able to somehow return to their previous highly consistent proportion of Latino and black students. UCLA is the same. It’s almost uncanny how the racial percentages at top schools stay so consistent over the years. https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/about-us/information-center/freshman-admissions-summary https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/about-us/information-...

vkou 3y ago

Fine. You think lying isn't always wrong. I don't care, it's not important, it's just an example. Pick literally any other action that you think is always wrong. I'll give you a counterexample where failing to do it is wrong. "Two wrongs don't make a right" is the 5-year old-level morality platitude that you should be turning your ire against. Because, as you're demonstrating, "Wrong" is entirely contextual. A 'wrong' that mitigates another wrong can make a right.