5 ms·

Good for Theo for writing this up, but it was Elizabeth Bik who got the ball rolling in discovering and investigating the fraud.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tda 3y ago
Some links: https://scienceintegritydigest.com/ https://scienceintegritydigest.com/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Bik https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Bik
jhbadger 3y ago
Bik is a wonderful resource in science in general. She also runs the Microbiome Digest https://microbiomedigest.com https://microbiomedigest.com that probably the majority of scientists working on the microbiome use to keep current in our field.
danso 3y ago
"Writing this up"? It's likely true that Dr. Bik got the ball running (I believe she had posted about the anomalous figures months/years in the past), but there's a big difference between noticing fraudulent signs in published research, versus pursuing that lead into an investigation that attempts to identify the actual decision makers. Marc Tessier-Lavigne said all along that the bad/faked data was the work of other sloppy/bad actors. It was only through the reporting from Theo Baker and his colleagues that the public learned of MTL's negligence and culpability.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- P_I_Staker 3y ago
  Don't you understand it's the IDEA that matters?
  - Slow_Hand 3y ago
    In this case the execution and follow-through matters more. I could be the one to identify that my metropolitan city has a massive homelessness problem. But it's another, much more impressive, achievement to be the one who does the hard work of pursuing and resolving that problem.
    - danso 3y ago
      You are correct but I think the comment was tongue in cheek.
      - Slow_Hand 3y ago
        Could be. Chalk it up to Poe’s Law, then.
- ProjectArcturis 3y ago
  I don't want to take away from Theo Baker's work here. The articles are well written and well researched. But ultimately they are simply reporting on other people's actions and formal investigations. I don't see any evidence that these articles were a driving force in this set of events.
  - danso 3y ago
    Well, technically, nearly all news reporting is "reporting on other people's actions" — e.g. Seymour Hersh didn't witness My Lai nor did he even find out about it on his own: Lt. Calley Jr. had already been investigated by the military and charged with mass murder of civilians; Hersh got interested after an anti-war lawyer tipped him off [0]. > I don't see any evidence that these articles were a driving force in this set of events. One day after Baker published his investigation in the Daily [1], Stanford announced an investigation into MTL's research. You think that's a coincidence, or that the university was pressured to act that quickly b/c of the Daily simply reporting that The EMBO Journal was looking into allegations about a 2008 paper that MTL was third author on? No need to speculate; the university explicitly credits the Daily's story [2]: > According to spokesperson Dee Mostofi, the University will “assess the allegations presented in the Stanford Daily, consistent with its normal rigorous approach by which allegations of research misconduct are reviewed and investigated.” It is true that Baker's first story led with the news that "A prominent research journal [EMBO] has confirmed to The Daily that it is reviewing a paper co-authored by [MTL]". But that's not the meat of the story, and most definitely not a catalyst for the university to announce an investigation. EMBO itself told the Daily that the review was still too early to comment: > When asked about the specific allegations and the timeframe of the investigation, Batista wrote, “We currently cannot comment more substantively before we have a better assessment of the full situation.” > It is unclear how long the review will take, and allegations can go without a response from the journal or authors for years. But an investigation could carry serious consequences for Tessier-Lavigne even if he is absolved of the alleged manipulation or other direct wrongdoing. [0] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/03/30/the-scene-of-the-crime https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/03/30/the-scene-of-t... [1] https://stanforddaily.com/2022/11/29/stanford-presidents-research-under-investigation-for-scientific-misconduct-university-admits-mistakes/ https://stanforddaily.com/2022/11/29/stanford-presidents-res... [2] https://stanforddaily.com/2022/11/30/stanford-opens-investigation-of-president-tessier-lavigne-following-daily-article-on-allegations-of-scientific-misconduct/ https://stanforddaily.com/2022/11/30/stanford-opens-investig...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

tda 3y ago

Some links: https://scienceintegritydigest.com/ https://scienceintegritydigest.com/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Bik https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Bik

jhbadger 3y ago

Bik is a wonderful resource in science in general. She also runs the Microbiome Digest https://microbiomedigest.com https://microbiomedigest.com that probably the majority of scientists working on the microbiome use to keep current in our field.

danso 3y ago

"Writing this up"? It's likely true that Dr. Bik got the ball running (I believe she had posted about the anomalous figures months/years in the past), but there's a big difference between noticing fraudulent signs in published research, versus pursuing that lead into an investigation that attempts to identify the actual decision makers. Marc Tessier-Lavigne said all along that the bad/faked data was the work of other sloppy/bad actors. It was only through the reporting from Theo Baker and his colleagues that the public learned of MTL's negligence and culpability.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
P_I_Staker 3y ago
Don't you understand it's the IDEA that matters?
- Slow_Hand 3y ago
  In this case the execution and follow-through matters more. I could be the one to identify that my metropolitan city has a massive homelessness problem. But it's another, much more impressive, achievement to be the one who does the hard work of pursuing and resolving that problem.
  - danso 3y ago
    You are correct but I think the comment was tongue in cheek.
    - Slow_Hand 3y ago
      Could be. Chalk it up to Poe’s Law, then.
ProjectArcturis 3y ago
I don't want to take away from Theo Baker's work here. The articles are well written and well researched. But ultimately they are simply reporting on other people's actions and formal investigations. I don't see any evidence that these articles were a driving force in this set of events.
- danso 3y ago
  Well, technically, nearly all news reporting is "reporting on other people's actions" — e.g. Seymour Hersh didn't witness My Lai nor did he even find out about it on his own: Lt. Calley Jr. had already been investigated by the military and charged with mass murder of civilians; Hersh got interested after an anti-war lawyer tipped him off [0]. > I don't see any evidence that these articles were a driving force in this set of events. One day after Baker published his investigation in the Daily [1], Stanford announced an investigation into MTL's research. You think that's a coincidence, or that the university was pressured to act that quickly b/c of the Daily simply reporting that The EMBO Journal was looking into allegations about a 2008 paper that MTL was third author on? No need to speculate; the university explicitly credits the Daily's story [2]: > According to spokesperson Dee Mostofi, the University will “assess the allegations presented in the Stanford Daily, consistent with its normal rigorous approach by which allegations of research misconduct are reviewed and investigated.” It is true that Baker's first story led with the news that "A prominent research journal [EMBO] has confirmed to The Daily that it is reviewing a paper co-authored by [MTL]". But that's not the meat of the story, and most definitely not a catalyst for the university to announce an investigation. EMBO itself told the Daily that the review was still too early to comment: > When asked about the specific allegations and the timeframe of the investigation, Batista wrote, “We currently cannot comment more substantively before we have a better assessment of the full situation.” > It is unclear how long the review will take, and allegations can go without a response from the journal or authors for years. But an investigation could carry serious consequences for Tessier-Lavigne even if he is absolved of the alleged manipulation or other direct wrongdoing. [0] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/03/30/the-scene-of-the-crime https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/03/30/the-scene-of-t... [1] https://stanforddaily.com/2022/11/29/stanford-presidents-research-under-investigation-for-scientific-misconduct-university-admits-mistakes/ https://stanforddaily.com/2022/11/29/stanford-presidents-res... [2] https://stanforddaily.com/2022/11/30/stanford-opens-investigation-of-president-tessier-lavigne-following-daily-article-on-allegations-of-scientific-misconduct/ https://stanforddaily.com/2022/11/30/stanford-opens-investig...