6 ms·

This is why fraud in science especially when funded by taxpayer money in important fields deserves PRISON. Damn my father has Alzheimer's, so this really hurts

This is why fraud in science especially when funded by taxpayer money in important fields deserves PRISON. Damn my father has Alzheimer's, so this really hurts deep.

outside415 3y ago
[flagged]
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > 7 orders of magnitude more effective at crossing the blood brain barrier In rats. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121011090653.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121011090653.h...
  - outside415 3y ago
    Human trials are underway. I’ve been taking it for 2 months. It’s very powerful. If it were my relative I would try everything (lions mane, fasting, dihexa, etc). Neurodegenerative diseases are horrifying. If you’re waiting for human clinical trials of the peptides that are up and coming it will be too late for people already starting to decline to benefit.
  - outside415 3y ago
    https://www.alzforum.org/therapeutics/fosgonimeton https://www.alzforum.org/therapeutics/fosgonimeton
SoftTalker 3y ago
I'm sorry for you and your father, but research fraud didn't cause his Alzheimers. It sucks that there is no treatment or cure but that is the case with a lot of diseases. I think something like fines equivalent to the amounts of the grants for the institution, and professional censure and a ban from working in grant-funded research for the researcher, would be more effective and appropriate than prison.
- some_thoughts 3y ago
  But research fraud does delay finding treatment. How many hours of wasted time chasing dead ends.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    That presumes there is a treatment, and the proposal to research it would have been funded, and it would have been found to be effective. But yes, research dollars are somewhat of a fixed pie, and there are always people who don't get a slice.
  - btilly 3y ago
    In the last 25 years, tens of billions almost all spent chasing the amyloid beta hypothesis, with other theories getting the short end of the stick. It didn't start changing until outside researchers wrote a major editorial about how bad it was in Nature. The biggest alternative is the infection hypothesis - amyloid beta is left by our immune reaction to diseases that manage to get into the brain. If that idea had been pursued for 25 years, we might actually know by now what the real connections are with HSV1 (warts), gum disease, and so on.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jeremyjh 3y ago
  That research fraud cost the public billions and set the field back more than a decade. Sad, huh? I think being flayed alive would be more appropriate than prison.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> fraud in science especially when funded by taxpayer money in important fields deserves PRISON Yes, but it must meet a strict standard of intent. Jailing scientists based on the content of their work is generally risky. If you create specific areas where prosecution is likely, you're more likely to dissuade research than increase quality. The present problem appears to be the fraud has a low probability of being caught. Improving that might have better pay-offs than deepening consequences for the minority who get found out.
- mike_hearn 3y ago
  There's options between jail and nothing, like fines on the institution, bans on receiving grants etc. As for low probability of being caught, nah, academic fraud gets caught all the time. There's so much out there it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Elizabeth Bik primarily goes after biomedical studies that can be spotted via image analysis and has said: “Science has a huge problem: 100s (1000s?) of science papers with obvious photoshops that have been reported, but that are all swept under the proverbial rug, with no action or only an author-friendly correction … There are dozens of examples where journals rather accept a clean (better photoshopped?) figure redo than asking the authors for a thorough explanation.” University vice presidents are almost always reluctant to get involved, and is that so surprising when fraud is so widespread that the President of Stanford is caught doing it? All you do by exposing fraud is make enemies. Theo Baker is an undergrad studying CS so has many options outside of academia but if he didn't, would he really have shot the king like this? Enforce sanctions against the people who are so lazy about fraud they get caught by random volunteers on Twitter, then worry about how to find the rest.
  - kansface 3y ago
    > bans on receiving grants etc Bans on grants, or the government could claw back the money. In either case, the universities would be incentivized to never recognize fraud ... which is maybe no different actually.
- seizethecheese 3y ago
  I disagree entirely. Scientists are highly trained professionals.
a-dub 3y ago
it's a known issue and science in general is improving on the reproducibility front. i think that technological complexity kind of snuck up on many fields and it has taken time for the very competitive research culture to adapt. releasing data was a complicated proposition back in the 2000s, where today more and more are appreciating the need for it. i think the real solution to all these problems comes from adjusting the funding model. there should be more money available for those who are willing to do the less exciting work of completely reproducing pivotal results from scratch.
digging 3y ago
> This is why fraud in science especially when funded by taxpayer money in important fields deserves PRISON. Oof, I couldn't disagree more. As a society we should be moving away from punitive measures and toward systemic reform. I don't think the prospect of prison time is going to deter people from playing the game they feel they have to in order to get research funding.
- MadcapJake 3y ago
  I couldn't agree more with you! The problem is in either the pressure to remain funded or the pressure to not admit defeat. Or a mixture of the two. We need to work on removing those roadblocks. This could be only the tip of the iceberg and harsher punishment is only going to drive people to get better at obfuscation/manipulation.
- Slava_Propanei 3y ago
  [dead]
wredue 3y ago
There is no connection between punitive actions and reduction of the causal behaviour. Fraud in science is a problem in that the very small minority of actors that conduct themselves unethically has had massive reach with groups that seek to discredit science. 20 years ago, being science illiterate was seen as bad for you. Today, 50% of us believe that being science illiterate is a positive trait in people seeking presidency. Jail or not, these people are causing significant public issues, so I’ll have to agree. It’s not going to reduce it, but still, fuck them for the damage they’ve wrought.

This is why fraud in science especially when funded by taxpayer money in important fields deserves PRISON. Damn my father has Alzheimer's, so this really hurts deep.

outside415 3y ago

[flagged]

ceejayoz 3y ago
> 7 orders of magnitude more effective at crossing the blood brain barrier In rats. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121011090653.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121011090653.h...
- outside415 3y ago
  Human trials are underway. I’ve been taking it for 2 months. It’s very powerful. If it were my relative I would try everything (lions mane, fasting, dihexa, etc). Neurodegenerative diseases are horrifying. If you’re waiting for human clinical trials of the peptides that are up and coming it will be too late for people already starting to decline to benefit.
- outside415 3y ago
  https://www.alzforum.org/therapeutics/fosgonimeton https://www.alzforum.org/therapeutics/fosgonimeton

SoftTalker 3y ago

I'm sorry for you and your father, but research fraud didn't cause his Alzheimers. It sucks that there is no treatment or cure but that is the case with a lot of diseases. I think something like fines equivalent to the amounts of the grants for the institution, and professional censure and a ban from working in grant-funded research for the researcher, would be more effective and appropriate than prison.

some_thoughts 3y ago
But research fraud does delay finding treatment. How many hours of wasted time chasing dead ends.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  That presumes there is a treatment, and the proposal to research it would have been funded, and it would have been found to be effective. But yes, research dollars are somewhat of a fixed pie, and there are always people who don't get a slice.
- btilly 3y ago
  In the last 25 years, tens of billions almost all spent chasing the amyloid beta hypothesis, with other theories getting the short end of the stick. It didn't start changing until outside researchers wrote a major editorial about how bad it was in Nature. The biggest alternative is the infection hypothesis - amyloid beta is left by our immune reaction to diseases that manage to get into the brain. If that idea had been pursued for 25 years, we might actually know by now what the real connections are with HSV1 (warts), gum disease, and so on.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jeremyjh 3y ago
That research fraud cost the public billions and set the field back more than a decade. Sad, huh? I think being flayed alive would be more appropriate than prison.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> fraud in science especially when funded by taxpayer money in important fields deserves PRISON Yes, but it must meet a strict standard of intent. Jailing scientists based on the content of their work is generally risky. If you create specific areas where prosecution is likely, you're more likely to dissuade research than increase quality. The present problem appears to be the fraud has a low probability of being caught. Improving that might have better pay-offs than deepening consequences for the minority who get found out.

mike_hearn 3y ago
There's options between jail and nothing, like fines on the institution, bans on receiving grants etc. As for low probability of being caught, nah, academic fraud gets caught all the time. There's so much out there it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Elizabeth Bik primarily goes after biomedical studies that can be spotted via image analysis and has said: “Science has a huge problem: 100s (1000s?) of science papers with obvious photoshops that have been reported, but that are all swept under the proverbial rug, with no action or only an author-friendly correction … There are dozens of examples where journals rather accept a clean (better photoshopped?) figure redo than asking the authors for a thorough explanation.” University vice presidents are almost always reluctant to get involved, and is that so surprising when fraud is so widespread that the President of Stanford is caught doing it? All you do by exposing fraud is make enemies. Theo Baker is an undergrad studying CS so has many options outside of academia but if he didn't, would he really have shot the king like this? Enforce sanctions against the people who are so lazy about fraud they get caught by random volunteers on Twitter, then worry about how to find the rest.
- kansface 3y ago
  > bans on receiving grants etc Bans on grants, or the government could claw back the money. In either case, the universities would be incentivized to never recognize fraud ... which is maybe no different actually.
seizethecheese 3y ago
I disagree entirely. Scientists are highly trained professionals.

a-dub 3y ago

it's a known issue and science in general is improving on the reproducibility front. i think that technological complexity kind of snuck up on many fields and it has taken time for the very competitive research culture to adapt. releasing data was a complicated proposition back in the 2000s, where today more and more are appreciating the need for it. i think the real solution to all these problems comes from adjusting the funding model. there should be more money available for those who are willing to do the less exciting work of completely reproducing pivotal results from scratch.

digging 3y ago

> This is why fraud in science especially when funded by taxpayer money in important fields deserves PRISON. Oof, I couldn't disagree more. As a society we should be moving away from punitive measures and toward systemic reform. I don't think the prospect of prison time is going to deter people from playing the game they feel they have to in order to get research funding.

MadcapJake 3y ago
I couldn't agree more with you! The problem is in either the pressure to remain funded or the pressure to not admit defeat. Or a mixture of the two. We need to work on removing those roadblocks. This could be only the tip of the iceberg and harsher punishment is only going to drive people to get better at obfuscation/manipulation.
Slava_Propanei 3y ago
[dead]

wredue 3y ago

There is no connection between punitive actions and reduction of the causal behaviour. Fraud in science is a problem in that the very small minority of actors that conduct themselves unethically has had massive reach with groups that seek to discredit science. 20 years ago, being science illiterate was seen as bad for you. Today, 50% of us believe that being science illiterate is a positive trait in people seeking presidency. Jail or not, these people are causing significant public issues, so I’ll have to agree. It’s not going to reduce it, but still, fuck them for the damage they’ve wrought.