4 ms·

I don't think the dichotomy is a bad rule of thumb to help understand someone, but it's certainly not their identity. I've come to find that it's down to the p

I don't think the dichotomy is a bad rule of thumb to help understand someone, but it's certainly not their identity. I've come to find that it's down to the person's experience with and resulting preference for crowds and individuals. It's nurture, not nature. I used to be very introverted until I started living on my own as an adult and had shit to do and wanted things in life. I've also seen extroverts that mellowed out with age. There's no mystery. Raise your kids and yourself accordingly.

kstrauser 3y ago
Despite claiming to have been one, you don't seem to understand what an introvert is. I'm a functional adult. I have a wife and kids, friends, and a good job. I can speak in public if needed, although I'd prefer not to. I don't have trouble meeting new people, talking to them, and getting to know them. I'm not shy, but I am an introvert. Being in crowds of people I'm expected to interact with on a personal level drains my energy. Baseball games, concerts, and the like? No problem! Crowds of strangers don't bother me a bit. But if there's a hell, my corner of it looks like a cocktail party where I'm expected to mingle with everyone and never get a moment to myself. Being an introvert is nothing I was raised to be. My mom's one. My dad was a natural salesman: put him in a room with 50 strangers, and 10 minutes later he was on a first name basis with them all and had plans to vacation together. They both raised me, and they both stressed the importance of good social graces. The difference is that after my dad's social butterfly antics, he was happy and fully of energy, while my mom was ready to go home and recharge for a while. I'm definitely my mom's kid on that one. I have stuff to do. There are things I want in life. I'm doing all that successfully. But when I'm done doing them, I just want a little time to myself to exhale and relax, OK?
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Yea there are many dimensions: Friends vs. family vs. strangers, individuals vs. groups vs. crowds, work context vs. fun context vs. shopping/errands context. Probably many more. After COVID I think there's probably an indoor vs. outdoor setting dimension! Different people respond differently across these dimensions. I particularly have trouble with: strangers + crowds + fun context. I think my nightmare is a crowded shoulder-to-shoulder concert in a stadium. I'd panic before I even got through the front gate. On the other hand, meeting with friends and family or work gatherings are no problem. Everyone has their weirdness.
  - SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
    For me it's kind of the opposite. I'm a big introvert. I'm totally happy to spend all day quietly by myself. Just my wife coming home for the evening is more than enough social interaction for me. We sometimes go out with one friend for supper - I'm tired after that. And I HATE family gatherings outside just my immediate family and I dread work events. But I love concerts. Being anonymous in a crowd, and not having to interact with anyone on anything but the most superficial level, is totally fine with me, and feeling that wave of energy from the crowd but not having to answer it is great. It's when I have to put the energy in to engage with people around me is when I'm pretty much immediately exhausted.
    - TylerE 3y ago
      A pro musician I know a bit once said the you never feel as alone as up on stage
- tetha 3y ago
  I agree with this. Like, alone, one on one and small groups of 4-6 people are great. I have very enjoyable memories of lounging around with bands after a show, just hanging out, drinking something, shooting some shit about music and life. Our boardgame round is similar, 3-4 people, we have similar interests, we know each other. I very much value these rounds. You can focus on people, you can listen to them, speaking rights are respected. Sometimes there is also nothing to say and that's fine. Crowds are also no issue. Find or form your bubble, or just be part of the faceless crowd. Or just drift around, bump into people, be part of a pit or another. It's wonderful. But being forced to get to know 50 people over the next 20 minutes just a little bit? That's terrifying and I know I will shut down and flee from the situation. And if I don't, I won't remember anyone. And hell, in a more compatible environment, I remember people from concerts at a festival 2 years ago by face alone because we had fun and had a good time and talk without even knowing their name (and as I learned now, it's Pet, haha).
- sublinear 3y ago
  > They both raised me, and they both stressed the importance of good social graces. No offense intended. Parents often tell, sometimes show, but rarely teach their kids much. Teaching isn't easy. My original point was that so much of this is also in the hands of the person, not your parents or society. Nurture isn't all external. I had a similar relationship with my parents. > But if there's a hell, my corner of it looks like a cocktail party where I'm expected to mingle with everyone and never get a moment to myself. That sounds to me like a lack of motivation, not introversion. I feel like you just don't see what's in it for you. If you were in sales, you would see that as an opportunity. Turning on charisma and charm is a skilled and conscious effort to delight people in subtle ways. Internally it's all about you, but externally it's all about them. Learning that dynamic requires experience. The only part that comes natural is the curiosity to develop a skill. Anyone can find joy in what essentially becomes a game when they understand it. > The difference is that after my dad's social butterfly antics, he was happy and fully of energy Yeah because he was satisfied with his performance. It's an interesting high. You should try it. It's worth pointing out I'm saying this as a software engineer from a small and not so well off family and only having a few friends growing up.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    I trust your sincerity, but our experiences couldn't be more different. First, my parents taught me, TYVM. I'm competent, and confident, in social settings. I know what's expected of me and how to do it. It's still exhausting, though. Honestly, the rest of your comment sounds more like you were always an extrovert but with social anxiety, and you got over it. I've never had social anxiety. Again, I can do all the things you're talking about, and I'm pretty good at them. When I've worked with salespeople in the past, I've been the engineer that they wanted to put in a room with customers, because I can make them laugh and give them warm fuzzy feelings about my employer. But when I'm done, my emotional batteries are completely empty and I have to recharge by myself or with a small circle of people I know very well and can relax around.
    - cole-k 3y ago
      Could you describe what it feels like to have your emotional batteries empty? I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if I were in your shoes trying to woo customers. I think the negative feelings I would have afterwards would be forms of anxiety: perhaps I'm worried I didn't present myself well, I'm thinking about a blunder I made, I have to recover because there was one guy giving me a hard time and making it difficult for me to be "on", or maybe I did everything right but something else upset me (I don't like the customers, what I'm selling, the venue...). From what I gather you would feel none of these things. Edit: Another thought: would you relate being at this kind of event to performing a concert? I usually am nervous, but eventually my instincts kick in and I can play. Afterwards my first thought isn't "let's do another," it's more like "I want some ice cream and to sit down." And I admit I kind of feel this way with big social events like the one you describe - maybe I'm focusing too much of a more negative feeling when I think about what you mean by being drained.
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
Agreed totally and Brene Brown has done great work on this topic - along with the whole Emotionally Focused Therapy movement. My MBTI would reliably give me INTJ from ages 16-37 Now I reliably test as ENFP What changed was my relationship with myself, and society, after coming to some hard realizations about my childhood and decades of trauma. I’ve seen similar changes in others, and I watch as (mostly) extroverted boys have their social extroversion absolutely crushed by weight of social and gender expectations. I watch it happen with my son and his friends and it hurts. Luckily gen z is savvy and a lot of them are countering this. This seems to drive people to choose being alone over the risk and complexity of dealing with social stuff, to the point where people find or create habits that just reinforce alienation. If I had to guess, a good percentage of people who are “introverts” have had a lot of early trauma and so avoid engaging with people out of anxiety.
- tayo42 3y ago
  ive kind of agree with your conclusion, though trauma makes it sound intense. i guess im kind of quiet, reservered "introverted", people always tell me how they eventually come out of their shell or w/e and one day i will. seems like people are always changing. i think anxiety and stuff has more to do with peoples social interactions
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    It's a shame that Trauma is only thought of as something violent, when it is often very subtle and "peaceful." Mostly cause we think of Trauma as adult trauma from War or displacement, or significant physical or emotional child abuse - but it can be as simple as your parent persistently telling you you're in the way etc...
withinboredom 3y ago
If you're a Myers Briggs person, apparently there is a 'secondary function' that you can 'switch to' and not drain as much energy (a therapist told me this once, no idea if it is true. I left and never returned; I am not a Myers Briggs person). Anyway, if true, then you just 'learn to be more comfortable in your secondary function' as you age. Anyway, I am most certainly an introvert. If anything, I've become more of an introvert as I just don't even tolerate small/bs talk around me. Real conversations or GTFO. I'm a right ole' grumpy old man.
- MrDresden 3y ago
  > "Despite its popularity, it has been widely regarded as pseudoscience by the scientific community." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator
vidarh 3y ago
I have no problems in social settings. I can even enjoy them. But they exhaust me, and that is the introversion.

kstrauser 3y ago

Despite claiming to have been one, you don't seem to understand what an introvert is. I'm a functional adult. I have a wife and kids, friends, and a good job. I can speak in public if needed, although I'd prefer not to. I don't have trouble meeting new people, talking to them, and getting to know them. I'm not shy, but I am an introvert. Being in crowds of people I'm expected to interact with on a personal level drains my energy. Baseball games, concerts, and the like? No problem! Crowds of strangers don't bother me a bit. But if there's a hell, my corner of it looks like a cocktail party where I'm expected to mingle with everyone and never get a moment to myself. Being an introvert is nothing I was raised to be. My mom's one. My dad was a natural salesman: put him in a room with 50 strangers, and 10 minutes later he was on a first name basis with them all and had plans to vacation together. They both raised me, and they both stressed the importance of good social graces. The difference is that after my dad's social butterfly antics, he was happy and fully of energy, while my mom was ready to go home and recharge for a while. I'm definitely my mom's kid on that one. I have stuff to do. There are things I want in life. I'm doing all that successfully. But when I'm done doing them, I just want a little time to myself to exhale and relax, OK?

ryandrake 3y ago
Yea there are many dimensions: Friends vs. family vs. strangers, individuals vs. groups vs. crowds, work context vs. fun context vs. shopping/errands context. Probably many more. After COVID I think there's probably an indoor vs. outdoor setting dimension! Different people respond differently across these dimensions. I particularly have trouble with: strangers + crowds + fun context. I think my nightmare is a crowded shoulder-to-shoulder concert in a stadium. I'd panic before I even got through the front gate. On the other hand, meeting with friends and family or work gatherings are no problem. Everyone has their weirdness.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
  For me it's kind of the opposite. I'm a big introvert. I'm totally happy to spend all day quietly by myself. Just my wife coming home for the evening is more than enough social interaction for me. We sometimes go out with one friend for supper - I'm tired after that. And I HATE family gatherings outside just my immediate family and I dread work events. But I love concerts. Being anonymous in a crowd, and not having to interact with anyone on anything but the most superficial level, is totally fine with me, and feeling that wave of energy from the crowd but not having to answer it is great. It's when I have to put the energy in to engage with people around me is when I'm pretty much immediately exhausted.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    A pro musician I know a bit once said the you never feel as alone as up on stage
tetha 3y ago
I agree with this. Like, alone, one on one and small groups of 4-6 people are great. I have very enjoyable memories of lounging around with bands after a show, just hanging out, drinking something, shooting some shit about music and life. Our boardgame round is similar, 3-4 people, we have similar interests, we know each other. I very much value these rounds. You can focus on people, you can listen to them, speaking rights are respected. Sometimes there is also nothing to say and that's fine. Crowds are also no issue. Find or form your bubble, or just be part of the faceless crowd. Or just drift around, bump into people, be part of a pit or another. It's wonderful. But being forced to get to know 50 people over the next 20 minutes just a little bit? That's terrifying and I know I will shut down and flee from the situation. And if I don't, I won't remember anyone. And hell, in a more compatible environment, I remember people from concerts at a festival 2 years ago by face alone because we had fun and had a good time and talk without even knowing their name (and as I learned now, it's Pet, haha).
sublinear 3y ago
> They both raised me, and they both stressed the importance of good social graces. No offense intended. Parents often tell, sometimes show, but rarely teach their kids much. Teaching isn't easy. My original point was that so much of this is also in the hands of the person, not your parents or society. Nurture isn't all external. I had a similar relationship with my parents. > But if there's a hell, my corner of it looks like a cocktail party where I'm expected to mingle with everyone and never get a moment to myself. That sounds to me like a lack of motivation, not introversion. I feel like you just don't see what's in it for you. If you were in sales, you would see that as an opportunity. Turning on charisma and charm is a skilled and conscious effort to delight people in subtle ways. Internally it's all about you, but externally it's all about them. Learning that dynamic requires experience. The only part that comes natural is the curiosity to develop a skill. Anyone can find joy in what essentially becomes a game when they understand it. > The difference is that after my dad's social butterfly antics, he was happy and fully of energy Yeah because he was satisfied with his performance. It's an interesting high. You should try it. It's worth pointing out I'm saying this as a software engineer from a small and not so well off family and only having a few friends growing up.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  I trust your sincerity, but our experiences couldn't be more different. First, my parents taught me, TYVM. I'm competent, and confident, in social settings. I know what's expected of me and how to do it. It's still exhausting, though. Honestly, the rest of your comment sounds more like you were always an extrovert but with social anxiety, and you got over it. I've never had social anxiety. Again, I can do all the things you're talking about, and I'm pretty good at them. When I've worked with salespeople in the past, I've been the engineer that they wanted to put in a room with customers, because I can make them laugh and give them warm fuzzy feelings about my employer. But when I'm done, my emotional batteries are completely empty and I have to recharge by myself or with a small circle of people I know very well and can relax around.
  - cole-k 3y ago
    Could you describe what it feels like to have your emotional batteries empty? I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if I were in your shoes trying to woo customers. I think the negative feelings I would have afterwards would be forms of anxiety: perhaps I'm worried I didn't present myself well, I'm thinking about a blunder I made, I have to recover because there was one guy giving me a hard time and making it difficult for me to be "on", or maybe I did everything right but something else upset me (I don't like the customers, what I'm selling, the venue...). From what I gather you would feel none of these things. Edit: Another thought: would you relate being at this kind of event to performing a concert? I usually am nervous, but eventually my instincts kick in and I can play. Afterwards my first thought isn't "let's do another," it's more like "I want some ice cream and to sit down." And I admit I kind of feel this way with big social events like the one you describe - maybe I'm focusing too much of a more negative feeling when I think about what you mean by being drained.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago

Agreed totally and Brene Brown has done great work on this topic - along with the whole Emotionally Focused Therapy movement. My MBTI would reliably give me INTJ from ages 16-37 Now I reliably test as ENFP What changed was my relationship with myself, and society, after coming to some hard realizations about my childhood and decades of trauma. I’ve seen similar changes in others, and I watch as (mostly) extroverted boys have their social extroversion absolutely crushed by weight of social and gender expectations. I watch it happen with my son and his friends and it hurts. Luckily gen z is savvy and a lot of them are countering this. This seems to drive people to choose being alone over the risk and complexity of dealing with social stuff, to the point where people find or create habits that just reinforce alienation. If I had to guess, a good percentage of people who are “introverts” have had a lot of early trauma and so avoid engaging with people out of anxiety.

tayo42 3y ago
ive kind of agree with your conclusion, though trauma makes it sound intense. i guess im kind of quiet, reservered "introverted", people always tell me how they eventually come out of their shell or w/e and one day i will. seems like people are always changing. i think anxiety and stuff has more to do with peoples social interactions
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  It's a shame that Trauma is only thought of as something violent, when it is often very subtle and "peaceful." Mostly cause we think of Trauma as adult trauma from War or displacement, or significant physical or emotional child abuse - but it can be as simple as your parent persistently telling you you're in the way etc...

withinboredom 3y ago

If you're a Myers Briggs person, apparently there is a 'secondary function' that you can 'switch to' and not drain as much energy (a therapist told me this once, no idea if it is true. I left and never returned; I am not a Myers Briggs person). Anyway, if true, then you just 'learn to be more comfortable in your secondary function' as you age. Anyway, I am most certainly an introvert. If anything, I've become more of an introvert as I just don't even tolerate small/bs talk around me. Real conversations or GTFO. I'm a right ole' grumpy old man.

MrDresden 3y ago
> "Despite its popularity, it has been widely regarded as pseudoscience by the scientific community." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator

vidarh 3y ago

I have no problems in social settings. I can even enjoy them. But they exhaust me, and that is the introversion.