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Lets be fair. This is where I buy arduino stuff. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004305055818.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004305055818.html A

by pierat 3y ago

Lets be fair. This is where I buy arduino stuff. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004305055818.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004305055818.html And yes, the price is $.57 and $1.29 shipping. Its a total of $12.98 for 10 of 'em. And that includes USB cables and headers. And, they're also individually sealed. And on https://store-usa.arduino.cc/products/arduino-nano?selectedStore=us https://store-usa.arduino.cc/products/arduino-nano?selectedS... , they're only $24.90 EACH. That's $249 not including shipping for the same. Or perhaps you need an Arduino Mega for 3d printing? Only $12.88 here. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32909503032.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32909503032.html You want ESP32 with usb-c ? $34.35/quantity 10 . https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005565990528.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005565990528.html Or perhaps STM32 is more up your alley with arm? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32792513237.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32792513237.html and that includes the ST-Link hardware programmer and the board for $3.53 And, as long as you ask the dealer for the manual on Ali, they'll almost always provide that. Might be partially or all in Chinese. But again, us DIY makers can afford this. We can't afford the jokes of prices in the US or European markets.

iancmceachern 3y ago
To be fair lots of other people just buy arduino brand boards directly or through Amazon, sparkfun, adafruit, etc.
joemi 3y ago
I've had a really bad time over the years with the USB chips in the clones, to the point where if I'm using a clone these days, I won't even attempt to use its USB and I'll just use ICSP to program the arduino clone. For cases where I know I'm going to want to use the USB I'll happily buy a genuine Arduino.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  Really? I’ve had no problems with the (usually CH34x) USB interfaces across high double digits of boards. I could ICSP them (and do for some of the 3D printers), but I can’t recall a single instance of Chinese-made clones needing that. There’s no way it would get me to pay 5-8x over the clones/respins.
- mianos 3y ago
  I have as well with MacOS. Never with a PC. I have some TTGO-display boards that have some USB to serial chip I could never get working on a Mac, no matter what drivers, uninstalling, installing etc. They worked fine on a PC. In the end I threw them out so they did not get mixed up. A very frustrating experience.
tacon 3y ago
>This is where I buy arduino stuff. >https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004305055818.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004305055818.html >And yes, the price is $.57 and $1.29 shipping. Its a total of $12.98 for 10 of 'em. And that includes USB cables and headers. And, they're also individually sealed. Yes, I've bought Arduino's from AliExpress. But that link is for a $0.57 "micro usb 30cm", i.e. a cable. The actual boards start at $6.36. Isn't shopping on AliExpress fun?
- ilyt 3y ago
  you can get them at $3-4 bucks
ilyt 3y ago
...so how VC funding help solve that problem ?
- chaxor 3y ago
  They can increase the price further due to pressure. Problem solved.
JohnFen 3y ago
I stopped buying those cheap boards, because of quality/counterfeit issues. It's worth paying more (to me) to avoid those problems. Even when they work, there are often longevity issues, which make them unsuitable for projects that I am giving to others or that I expect to be using for years to come. But if I'm doing some experimental project where I want a lot of boards, or where there's a high risk that I'll fry them, the cheapies make sense.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  How can open hardware be counterfeit?
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Counterfeit chips, not boards.
  - alranel 3y ago
    This is well explained here: https://support.arduino.cc/hc/en-us/articles/360020652100-How-to-spot-a-counterfeit-Arduino https://support.arduino.cc/hc/en-us/articles/360020652100-Ho... A counterfeit is a product that tries to deceive customers making them believe that it's manufactured by someone else (regardless of the open source nature of its design). Open source hardware design only makes for a part of a commercial product and does not cover manufacturing, supply chain, quality of components, warranty, customer support etc. etc. for which it's important to distinguish who is the actual entity responsible for that product.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  I may be an anecdote of 1, but I have purchased dozens (probably over 100 by now) of arduino clones of various types and have position converters based on Nano clones running large machine tools in various industrial locations. In all that time I've had one failure and that was due to me doing something stupid. I think I've only ever had one genuine Arduino brand device and that was sent to me by a client.
  - 3y ago
MSFT_Edging 3y ago
I'm talking institutions buying class sets, colleges having your intro to microcontroller classes have you buy an arduino at the book store. Starter kits on amazon, etc. Of course you could buy something from aliexpress for pennies on the dollar and a month of shipping time, but a lot of people don't.
flangola7 3y ago
And now will VC solve this problem? You can't stop china counterfeiting by throwing money at it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
alranel 3y ago
Without implying that your purchase choices are wrong by any mean, it's worth reminding that the price difference incorporates several hidden costs: - general higher costs to manufacture in Europe (including labor rights) - certifications about hazardous substances, radio compliance etc. - R&D (clones just download the CAD file and load it into the machines with zero costs for product design, development, testing etc.) - software development of the cores/board support packages (clones benefit from the upstream development with zero cost on their side) - software development of the tooling (IDE, CLI...) which is a recurring cost as things need to be maintained (clones benefit from the work done by Arduino with zero cost on their side) - marketing/adv/evangelism/documentation (clones have almost zero cost as they benefit from the long tail of the promotion made by Arduino) That said, this is legit and Arduino even encourages it by deliberately making the products open source hardware thus releasing the files that any cloner can use and become a competitor at a fraction of the original costs. Buyers can freely choose if they want to support those costs or not, it's up to their ethics, budget and personal choice. But the prices are different because there are different thing inside.

by pierat 3y ago

iancmceachern 3y ago

To be fair lots of other people just buy arduino brand boards directly or through Amazon, sparkfun, adafruit, etc.

joemi 3y ago

I've had a really bad time over the years with the USB chips in the clones, to the point where if I'm using a clone these days, I won't even attempt to use its USB and I'll just use ICSP to program the arduino clone. For cases where I know I'm going to want to use the USB I'll happily buy a genuine Arduino.

sokoloff 3y ago
Really? I’ve had no problems with the (usually CH34x) USB interfaces across high double digits of boards. I could ICSP them (and do for some of the 3D printers), but I can’t recall a single instance of Chinese-made clones needing that. There’s no way it would get me to pay 5-8x over the clones/respins.
mianos 3y ago
I have as well with MacOS. Never with a PC. I have some TTGO-display boards that have some USB to serial chip I could never get working on a Mac, no matter what drivers, uninstalling, installing etc. They worked fine on a PC. In the end I threw them out so they did not get mixed up. A very frustrating experience.

tacon 3y ago

>This is where I buy arduino stuff. >https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004305055818.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004305055818.html >And yes, the price is $.57 and $1.29 shipping. Its a total of $12.98 for 10 of 'em. And that includes USB cables and headers. And, they're also individually sealed. Yes, I've bought Arduino's from AliExpress. But that link is for a $0.57 "micro usb 30cm", i.e. a cable. The actual boards start at $6.36. Isn't shopping on AliExpress fun?

ilyt 3y ago
you can get them at $3-4 bucks

ilyt 3y ago

...so how VC funding help solve that problem ?

chaxor 3y ago
They can increase the price further due to pressure. Problem solved.

JohnFen 3y ago

I stopped buying those cheap boards, because of quality/counterfeit issues. It's worth paying more (to me) to avoid those problems. Even when they work, there are often longevity issues, which make them unsuitable for projects that I am giving to others or that I expect to be using for years to come. But if I'm doing some experimental project where I want a lot of boards, or where there's a high risk that I'll fry them, the cheapies make sense.

Dah00n 3y ago
How can open hardware be counterfeit?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Counterfeit chips, not boards.
- alranel 3y ago
  This is well explained here: https://support.arduino.cc/hc/en-us/articles/360020652100-How-to-spot-a-counterfeit-Arduino https://support.arduino.cc/hc/en-us/articles/360020652100-Ho... A counterfeit is a product that tries to deceive customers making them believe that it's manufactured by someone else (regardless of the open source nature of its design). Open source hardware design only makes for a part of a commercial product and does not cover manufacturing, supply chain, quality of components, warranty, customer support etc. etc. for which it's important to distinguish who is the actual entity responsible for that product.
HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
I may be an anecdote of 1, but I have purchased dozens (probably over 100 by now) of arduino clones of various types and have position converters based on Nano clones running large machine tools in various industrial locations. In all that time I've had one failure and that was due to me doing something stupid. I think I've only ever had one genuine Arduino brand device and that was sent to me by a client.
- 3y ago

MSFT_Edging 3y ago

I'm talking institutions buying class sets, colleges having your intro to microcontroller classes have you buy an arduino at the book store. Starter kits on amazon, etc. Of course you could buy something from aliexpress for pennies on the dollar and a month of shipping time, but a lot of people don't.

flangola7 3y ago

And now will VC solve this problem? You can't stop china counterfeiting by throwing money at it.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

alranel 3y ago

Without implying that your purchase choices are wrong by any mean, it's worth reminding that the price difference incorporates several hidden costs: - general higher costs to manufacture in Europe (including labor rights) - certifications about hazardous substances, radio compliance etc. - R&D (clones just download the CAD file and load it into the machines with zero costs for product design, development, testing etc.) - software development of the cores/board support packages (clones benefit from the upstream development with zero cost on their side) - software development of the tooling (IDE, CLI...) which is a recurring cost as things need to be maintained (clones benefit from the work done by Arduino with zero cost on their side) - marketing/adv/evangelism/documentation (clones have almost zero cost as they benefit from the long tail of the promotion made by Arduino) That said, this is legit and Arduino even encourages it by deliberately making the products open source hardware thus releasing the files that any cloner can use and become a competitor at a fraction of the original costs. Buyers can freely choose if they want to support those costs or not, it's up to their ethics, budget and personal choice. But the prices are different because there are different thing inside.