6 ms·

I think Hoyoverse (formerly Mihoyo) has the formula down. You don't have to spend money on their games. They play just fine without. But you think "wouldn't it

I think Hoyoverse (formerly Mihoyo) has the formula down. You don't have to spend money on their games. They play just fine without. But you think "wouldn't it be nice to have Ganyu or Hu Tao". I think the drop rates are better than FGO at least.

mcpackieh 3y ago
> I think Hoyoverse (formerly Mihoyo) has the formula down. You don't have to spend money on their games. They play just fine without That only makes it more tempting to start playing. You can't get hooked on these games if you never play them in the first place, so making it 'easier' to start playing is a big part of the problem.
- ethbr0 3y ago
  That was the realization that turned me off video games. What is any modern, non-boxed sales model videogame selling? Artificial scarcity. And who is in absolute control of that scarcity? The developer. Why addict yourself to something your counterparty has every incentive to abuse you over? Or as I asked in terms of my EVE Online experience, "Am I actually enjoying every moment of playing, or am I doing work I don't enjoy just so that I can get something?"
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    Artificial scarcity controlled by the developer is what pretty much all software, movies, tv shows, streaming, etc. are selling.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >Why addict yourself to something your counterparty has every incentive to abuse you over? sorry if this answer sounds dismissive, but well: "because it's fun". I don't think myself as that strong an addict, though. So if it starts feeling not fun I simply quit spending, and likely quit altogether. >Or as I asked in terms of my EVE Online experience, "Am I actually enjoying every moment of playing, or am I doing work I don't enjoy just so that I can get something?" that's honestly an interesting question in and of itself. Because real life can have that analog too. Especially for an MMO like Eve. There may not always be times where I want to go out with friends, but I want to keep good relations, so I can put up with it until/unless I really can't make that plan. I imagine guilds in MMOs have similar incentive. At some point you make genuine friends and you're there for them more than the daily grind itself. It's a means to gather friends together.
    - ethbr0 3y ago
      Cigarettes are fun too. But if you start smoking knowing that they're addictive... The thing that really rubs me wrong is that you're playing a rigged game (literatively and figuratively) when you invest effort into grind games. Essentially everything about the game world is under the developer's control, and they can use anything they want to get you to do what they want (spend more money). Which to me feels like a card game where the dealer says "I'm going to cheat and redefine the rules whenever I want" and customers respond "Deal me in!" Granted, there are good and bad developers and publishers. I play a ton of Paradox games, and I'm generally happy with the balance.
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        Cigarettes are a great example. Because while there are more restrictions on how to advertise them, limits on where you can smoke, and age restrictions on who to sell to, they are still perfectly legal to own and overall legal to sell to the right people. I don't personally care if they set more restrictions, but I'm not really a fan of outright banning something that an able adult chooses to partake in. Which seems to be how so much of the conversation goes on the topic. In any case, I still don't believe that games are so addicting as to be compared to Cigarette's nicotine. I a dealer changes the rules too drastically and maliciously against my ability to have fun... I leave. And that's why many mobile games outside of the absolute top money makers tend to be short lived. They aren't just a casino holding players hostage, they compete with other games and even medium, and like any game it can be hard to hold attention. Some may not even go in with the intent to hold the player attention for more than a few months. >Granted, there are good and bad developers and publishers. I play a ton of Paradox games, and I'm generally happy with the balance. of course. It's the same even with old school PS1/N64 titles. But I suppose many people aren't knowledgable enough in those games to know which are good/bad, and assume all are bad.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
terribleperson 3y ago
I think it's worse than that. Miyoho gives you the impression you can play their games without spending money, but in practice the gap between one copy of a character and four copies of a character can be enormous. By the time you realize this, you've been on the game for a while and are more likely to spend.
- libraryatnight 3y ago
  A lot of gacha games use this. Right when players think they've got something top tier, no no, the real top tier version is that .0001% drop x 4 to merge into some super version. It's gross when you hear a young kid talk about how much some youtuber or twitch streamer "whaled" on stream like it's a flex to be admired.
- hnick 3y ago
  While that is true, in Genshin Impact at least, the main game is so easy it's not really an issue unless you choose to be a min-maxer, and there's no PvP competitive aspect. You can beat the abyss full f2p, but it will take a bit longer to get there (as someone who has been a denegerate min-maxer in other games, I have no interest in pushing for it myself). The worst whales I've seen are those who get emotionally attached to a character.
  - hakfoo 3y ago
    The other thing is that there's no meaningful leaderboard or PVP situations. Some gamers will whale to acquire or preserve a position as #1-on-the-charts, so hyperoptimizing for single player doesn't scratch that itch, unless you're doing some Rube Goldberg setup like self-promoting video streams demonstrating your overpowered build. I've tossed a little money (probably about USD40 over three years) on Genshin, but I'd rather express my attachment to characters by buying an Arataki Itto oppai mousepad off of Aliexpress. TBH, I found my interest waning when I realized I had a sufficiently capable team of characters I liked, so there wasn't really any reason to go chasing characters I didn't want.
    - fomine3 3y ago
raincole 3y ago
The only "You don't have to spend money"-games are like Dota2. In Dota2 you literally can't get any gameplay advantage by spending money. You get different visual effects or audio effects and that's all. All the other freemium models are just tricking you into thinking you don't have to spend money. And even that is still quite gambling-like, if you think about it.
- hellojesus 3y ago
  OW2 offers no gameplay advantage of which I'm aware. However, they did remove the loot boxes for pay2cosmetic which really made the game unrewarding.
  - libraryatnight 3y ago
    I feel like if the game isn't fun enough to feel rewarding on its own you were playing lootboxes and overwatch was the interactive ad to get more lol
    - vintermann 3y ago
      Yeah, but that's how I always felt about poker too. Poker without real stakes is a boring game even as card games go.
    - YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
      A lot of the time, even if the game /is/ rewarding enough on its own, the game you're really playing is still "lootboxes". Las Vegas casinos have roller coasters, live music, theatre, quality restaurants and various other attractions inside them. Some of them would even be worthwhile attractions on their own, but they're ultimately still adverts for the casinos. Gambling is just so profitable that they can afford to make their advertisements entire other fully-functionig businesses.
    - hellojesus 3y ago
      The game is definitely fun enough on its own. But it went from "a fun game that gave me coins via lootbox duplicates that I could save up for some great dance emotes" to "a fun game that no longer has free cosmetics or dances, and therefore is now a fun game that is less fun that it used to be." Plus I paid $20 or whatever for OW1. That game no longer exists. I would have happily paid $20 for OW2, even $50-60. But since I don't subscribe to the pay for cosmetics model, now blizz gets $0 from me, and I just accept I won't get cool new dances.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
Most modern Asian mobage ("gacha" as they call it. Short for "gachapon/gashapon" inspired by the gumball machine esque toy of the same name) are like that these days. They are well past the days where they focus on selling solutions to hard levels. They can "simply" create an entire culture around a game or even individual characters and use that parasocial relationship to grip players. Within the game with stories and bond mechanics and whatnot, and outside the game with animation, merch, Youtube personalities (as it's called today, Virtual Youtubers, or "VTubers"), and even concerts. And I didn't even get into the fanart side of this. It makes for better game design at least. but what they are doing is much larger thinking than those old school arcade grift strategies.
- kalleboo 3y ago
  Yep. For example, I have a friend who is into ウマ娘 (Uma Musume - Horse Girls) by Cygames. It's a "horse racing" game with anime girls with horse ears. There's a whole ecosystem around it with several anime series, concerts with music from the game with the voice actors singing and dancing on stage, variety shows with the voice actors, YouTube channels, lots of limited edition merch you can win at convenience stores. My friend (who only has a part time job and lives with her parents at age 25) has spent over $700 upgrading just one of her characters. "But she's so cute!" https://umamusume.jp https://umamusume.jp https://anime-umamusume.jp https://anime-umamusume.jp https://1kuji.com/products/umamusume7 https://1kuji.com/products/umamusume7 https://umamusume.jp/event/gb5th/gaze/ https://umamusume.jp/event/gb5th/gaze/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAWxPGGuIfWME2KTLUmSCHw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAWxPGGuIfWME2KTLUmSCHw etc etc it never ends
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    If your friend can afford that, it's honestly none of your nor our business to tell her how to spend her money. If your friend can't afford that, why is the problem Uma Musume and not your friend? We could regulate gacha games into extinction, but that only means your friend will just find another avenue to spend $700 dollars of unaffordable money in. If anything, I would at least take solace in the fact your friend isn't spending her money on things that would matter of factly cause tangible harm like drugs and alcohol instead.

mcpackieh 3y ago

> I think Hoyoverse (formerly Mihoyo) has the formula down. You don't have to spend money on their games. They play just fine without That only makes it more tempting to start playing. You can't get hooked on these games if you never play them in the first place, so making it 'easier' to start playing is a big part of the problem.

ethbr0 3y ago
That was the realization that turned me off video games. What is any modern, non-boxed sales model videogame selling? Artificial scarcity. And who is in absolute control of that scarcity? The developer. Why addict yourself to something your counterparty has every incentive to abuse you over? Or as I asked in terms of my EVE Online experience, "Am I actually enjoying every moment of playing, or am I doing work I don't enjoy just so that I can get something?"
- HWR_14 3y ago
  Artificial scarcity controlled by the developer is what pretty much all software, movies, tv shows, streaming, etc. are selling.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >Why addict yourself to something your counterparty has every incentive to abuse you over? sorry if this answer sounds dismissive, but well: "because it's fun". I don't think myself as that strong an addict, though. So if it starts feeling not fun I simply quit spending, and likely quit altogether. >Or as I asked in terms of my EVE Online experience, "Am I actually enjoying every moment of playing, or am I doing work I don't enjoy just so that I can get something?" that's honestly an interesting question in and of itself. Because real life can have that analog too. Especially for an MMO like Eve. There may not always be times where I want to go out with friends, but I want to keep good relations, so I can put up with it until/unless I really can't make that plan. I imagine guilds in MMOs have similar incentive. At some point you make genuine friends and you're there for them more than the daily grind itself. It's a means to gather friends together.
  - ethbr0 3y ago
    Cigarettes are fun too. But if you start smoking knowing that they're addictive... The thing that really rubs me wrong is that you're playing a rigged game (literatively and figuratively) when you invest effort into grind games. Essentially everything about the game world is under the developer's control, and they can use anything they want to get you to do what they want (spend more money). Which to me feels like a card game where the dealer says "I'm going to cheat and redefine the rules whenever I want" and customers respond "Deal me in!" Granted, there are good and bad developers and publishers. I play a ton of Paradox games, and I'm generally happy with the balance.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      Cigarettes are a great example. Because while there are more restrictions on how to advertise them, limits on where you can smoke, and age restrictions on who to sell to, they are still perfectly legal to own and overall legal to sell to the right people. I don't personally care if they set more restrictions, but I'm not really a fan of outright banning something that an able adult chooses to partake in. Which seems to be how so much of the conversation goes on the topic. In any case, I still don't believe that games are so addicting as to be compared to Cigarette's nicotine. I a dealer changes the rules too drastically and maliciously against my ability to have fun... I leave. And that's why many mobile games outside of the absolute top money makers tend to be short lived. They aren't just a casino holding players hostage, they compete with other games and even medium, and like any game it can be hard to hold attention. Some may not even go in with the intent to hold the player attention for more than a few months. >Granted, there are good and bad developers and publishers. I play a ton of Paradox games, and I'm generally happy with the balance. of course. It's the same even with old school PS1/N64 titles. But I suppose many people aren't knowledgable enough in those games to know which are good/bad, and assume all are bad.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

terribleperson 3y ago

I think it's worse than that. Miyoho gives you the impression you can play their games without spending money, but in practice the gap between one copy of a character and four copies of a character can be enormous. By the time you realize this, you've been on the game for a while and are more likely to spend.

libraryatnight 3y ago
A lot of gacha games use this. Right when players think they've got something top tier, no no, the real top tier version is that .0001% drop x 4 to merge into some super version. It's gross when you hear a young kid talk about how much some youtuber or twitch streamer "whaled" on stream like it's a flex to be admired.
hnick 3y ago
While that is true, in Genshin Impact at least, the main game is so easy it's not really an issue unless you choose to be a min-maxer, and there's no PvP competitive aspect. You can beat the abyss full f2p, but it will take a bit longer to get there (as someone who has been a denegerate min-maxer in other games, I have no interest in pushing for it myself). The worst whales I've seen are those who get emotionally attached to a character.
- hakfoo 3y ago
  The other thing is that there's no meaningful leaderboard or PVP situations. Some gamers will whale to acquire or preserve a position as #1-on-the-charts, so hyperoptimizing for single player doesn't scratch that itch, unless you're doing some Rube Goldberg setup like self-promoting video streams demonstrating your overpowered build. I've tossed a little money (probably about USD40 over three years) on Genshin, but I'd rather express my attachment to characters by buying an Arataki Itto oppai mousepad off of Aliexpress. TBH, I found my interest waning when I realized I had a sufficiently capable team of characters I liked, so there wasn't really any reason to go chasing characters I didn't want.
  - fomine3 3y ago

raincole 3y ago

The only "You don't have to spend money"-games are like Dota2. In Dota2 you literally can't get any gameplay advantage by spending money. You get different visual effects or audio effects and that's all. All the other freemium models are just tricking you into thinking you don't have to spend money. And even that is still quite gambling-like, if you think about it.

hellojesus 3y ago
OW2 offers no gameplay advantage of which I'm aware. However, they did remove the loot boxes for pay2cosmetic which really made the game unrewarding.
- libraryatnight 3y ago
  I feel like if the game isn't fun enough to feel rewarding on its own you were playing lootboxes and overwatch was the interactive ad to get more lol
  - vintermann 3y ago
    Yeah, but that's how I always felt about poker too. Poker without real stakes is a boring game even as card games go.
  - YurgenJurgensen 3y ago
    A lot of the time, even if the game /is/ rewarding enough on its own, the game you're really playing is still "lootboxes". Las Vegas casinos have roller coasters, live music, theatre, quality restaurants and various other attractions inside them. Some of them would even be worthwhile attractions on their own, but they're ultimately still adverts for the casinos. Gambling is just so profitable that they can afford to make their advertisements entire other fully-functionig businesses.
  - hellojesus 3y ago
    The game is definitely fun enough on its own. But it went from "a fun game that gave me coins via lootbox duplicates that I could save up for some great dance emotes" to "a fun game that no longer has free cosmetics or dances, and therefore is now a fun game that is less fun that it used to be." Plus I paid $20 or whatever for OW1. That game no longer exists. I would have happily paid $20 for OW2, even $50-60. But since I don't subscribe to the pay for cosmetics model, now blizz gets $0 from me, and I just accept I won't get cool new dances.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

Most modern Asian mobage ("gacha" as they call it. Short for "gachapon/gashapon" inspired by the gumball machine esque toy of the same name) are like that these days. They are well past the days where they focus on selling solutions to hard levels. They can "simply" create an entire culture around a game or even individual characters and use that parasocial relationship to grip players. Within the game with stories and bond mechanics and whatnot, and outside the game with animation, merch, Youtube personalities (as it's called today, Virtual Youtubers, or "VTubers"), and even concerts. And I didn't even get into the fanart side of this. It makes for better game design at least. but what they are doing is much larger thinking than those old school arcade grift strategies.

kalleboo 3y ago
Yep. For example, I have a friend who is into ウマ娘 (Uma Musume - Horse Girls) by Cygames. It's a "horse racing" game with anime girls with horse ears. There's a whole ecosystem around it with several anime series, concerts with music from the game with the voice actors singing and dancing on stage, variety shows with the voice actors, YouTube channels, lots of limited edition merch you can win at convenience stores. My friend (who only has a part time job and lives with her parents at age 25) has spent over $700 upgrading just one of her characters. "But she's so cute!" https://umamusume.jp https://umamusume.jp https://anime-umamusume.jp https://anime-umamusume.jp https://1kuji.com/products/umamusume7 https://1kuji.com/products/umamusume7 https://umamusume.jp/event/gb5th/gaze/ https://umamusume.jp/event/gb5th/gaze/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAWxPGGuIfWME2KTLUmSCHw https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAWxPGGuIfWME2KTLUmSCHw etc etc it never ends
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  If your friend can afford that, it's honestly none of your nor our business to tell her how to spend her money. If your friend can't afford that, why is the problem Uma Musume and not your friend? We could regulate gacha games into extinction, but that only means your friend will just find another avenue to spend $700 dollars of unaffordable money in. If anything, I would at least take solace in the fact your friend isn't spending her money on things that would matter of factly cause tangible harm like drugs and alcohol instead.