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The customers will get their property back, just not immediately. It takes time to sort out things when a company goes bankrupt. That's why the police don't get

The customers will get their property back, just not immediately. It takes time to sort out things when a company goes bankrupt. That's why the police don't get involved. If the door to a shop is locked and there are no employees, breaking in makes the problem far worse.

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
The problem is that the customers did not agree for their property to be locked away for an indeterminate amount of time, so it makes sense for the police to gain entry and return customer owned bikes that are in for repair. Bankruptcy proceedings have no bearing on bikes that are not property of the former Van Moof (Van Poof), so what's the benefit in preventing customers regaining their own property?
- yourusername 3y ago
  >The problem is that the customers did not agree for their property to be locked away for an indeterminate amount of time, so it makes sense for the police to gain entry and return customer owned bikes that are in for repair. Things under repair being locked up until the curator determines what belong to who and if they owe money before it is returned after bankrupcy is standard practice under Dutch law. To the point that there are form letters available online to ask for your stuff back when a company has gone bankrupt.
- pixl97 3y ago
  >Bankruptcy proceedings have no bearing on bikes that are not property of the former Well, not really. Bankruptcy laws can widely differ around the world, but for example if something of yours is on my properly and I go bankrupt then the bank puts a lock around my property then you must put a motion into the bankruptcy court to lay claim to and retrieve your property. It's likely you would be charged with trespass by both the bank and the land owner if you attempted to claim it. Van Moof cannot even give you your property in most jurisdictions, the parties in the bankruptcy must agree that 'your' property actually belongs to you, and that the person going bankrupt is not committing some sort of fraud by giving away assets.
danpalmer 3y ago
Not necessarily. Not sure about how it'll work in the Netherlands, but I've seen this happen in the UK and I believe customers essentially lost the items that were in for repair because they were effectively property of the company during that time, or something like that. I believe repair shop contents were sold off to cover debts.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
  That doesn't make any sense to me. A company doesn't take ownership of items that come in for repair/servicing, and simply locking other people's property into a room/shop/garage is hardly a basis for ownership as otherwise thieves could just nick something, lock it into a garage and then claim ownership.
  - danpalmer 3y ago
    I'm not a lawyer, and I haven't read the terms of service, just going on what I have seen happen to a local company here a few years ago. I agree it doesn't make sense. > A company doesn't take ownership of items that come in for repair/servicing While this seems unlikely, it's not obvious to me that this is not what "technically" happens for consumer electronics.
    - singleshot_ 3y ago
      The concept at the center of this discussion, but which is not being discussed is called “bailment.” While every bankruptcy system has rules for unwinding those bailments entered into before filing, they vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and much of what we think would be workable or fair just doesn’t work that way.
- cafard 3y ago
  John Gregory Dunne long ago wrote a piece about his wife (Joan Didion) wrangling with the IRS to get back his shirts from a laundry the IRS had seized. With a good deal of persistence, she managed to do it. When handing back the goods, somebody from the IRS told him, Your wife is a grouch--which hardly seems fair.
steelframe 3y ago
> The customers will get their property back, just not immediately. "Just not immediately" is a big fucking deal for people in Amsterdam who use their bicycles as their primary means of transportation. Imagine you lived in Phoenix right now and the same thing happened with your car. You dropped off your Rivian or Lucid for repairs and -- surprise! -- they were actually on the brink of bankruptcy, so now the only way for you to get to work, pick up kids, etc. is to try walking, biking, or busing for miles in 110F+ degree heat until the courts figure out how to get your vehicle back to you. If I depended on my bike for transportation -- as is the case for many people in Amsterdam -- then holding onto my bike for more than a few days for a repair is effective theft of my primary means of transportation. If the mechanic tells me they can swap out a part in a couple of days and needs to keep the bike for that, no big deal. The milk in my fridge won't spoil in that time, and I can WFH for a couple of days. Maybe take a while longer to get to and from daycare by walking and busing. But if my bike becomes unavailable for much longer than that, at that point I would be forced to treat it exactly like a theft and purchase a replacement so I can travel the way I need to again. I still need to buy groceries and get to the office in a reasonable amount of time, and I don't have weeks or months to wait until the courts/lawyers can finally figure out WTF is going on with the property locked in the stores. Sure, chances are I'll eventually get my means of transportation back, but by then it will be too late, since I will have been forced to replace it by then. It's de facto theft.
- yourusername 3y ago
  >"Just not immediately" is a big fucking deal for people in Amsterdam who use their bicycles as their primary means of transportation. Imagine you lived in Phoenix right now and the same thing happened with your car. You dropped off your Rivian or Lucid for repairs and -- surprise! -- they were actually on the brink of bankruptcy, so now the only way for you to get to work, pick up kids, etc. is to try walking, biking, or busing for miles in 110F+ degree heat until the courts figure out how to get your vehicle back to you. It's not remotely the same. You can buy a used €100 bike in Amsterdam easily (which should be no big deal to people riding around on €2300 bikes). You're not walking miles in 110F heat to the store in Amsterdam, more like a 1 km (max) walk in 22c weather. I don't think you realize how common actual bike theft is in the Netherlands. It is in no way a big deal.

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago

The problem is that the customers did not agree for their property to be locked away for an indeterminate amount of time, so it makes sense for the police to gain entry and return customer owned bikes that are in for repair. Bankruptcy proceedings have no bearing on bikes that are not property of the former Van Moof (Van Poof), so what's the benefit in preventing customers regaining their own property?

yourusername 3y ago
>The problem is that the customers did not agree for their property to be locked away for an indeterminate amount of time, so it makes sense for the police to gain entry and return customer owned bikes that are in for repair. Things under repair being locked up until the curator determines what belong to who and if they owe money before it is returned after bankrupcy is standard practice under Dutch law. To the point that there are form letters available online to ask for your stuff back when a company has gone bankrupt.
pixl97 3y ago
>Bankruptcy proceedings have no bearing on bikes that are not property of the former Well, not really. Bankruptcy laws can widely differ around the world, but for example if something of yours is on my properly and I go bankrupt then the bank puts a lock around my property then you must put a motion into the bankruptcy court to lay claim to and retrieve your property. It's likely you would be charged with trespass by both the bank and the land owner if you attempted to claim it. Van Moof cannot even give you your property in most jurisdictions, the parties in the bankruptcy must agree that 'your' property actually belongs to you, and that the person going bankrupt is not committing some sort of fraud by giving away assets.

danpalmer 3y ago

Not necessarily. Not sure about how it'll work in the Netherlands, but I've seen this happen in the UK and I believe customers essentially lost the items that were in for repair because they were effectively property of the company during that time, or something like that. I believe repair shop contents were sold off to cover debts.

ndsipa_pomu 3y ago
That doesn't make any sense to me. A company doesn't take ownership of items that come in for repair/servicing, and simply locking other people's property into a room/shop/garage is hardly a basis for ownership as otherwise thieves could just nick something, lock it into a garage and then claim ownership.
- danpalmer 3y ago
  I'm not a lawyer, and I haven't read the terms of service, just going on what I have seen happen to a local company here a few years ago. I agree it doesn't make sense. > A company doesn't take ownership of items that come in for repair/servicing While this seems unlikely, it's not obvious to me that this is not what "technically" happens for consumer electronics.
  - singleshot_ 3y ago
    The concept at the center of this discussion, but which is not being discussed is called “bailment.” While every bankruptcy system has rules for unwinding those bailments entered into before filing, they vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and much of what we think would be workable or fair just doesn’t work that way.
cafard 3y ago
John Gregory Dunne long ago wrote a piece about his wife (Joan Didion) wrangling with the IRS to get back his shirts from a laundry the IRS had seized. With a good deal of persistence, she managed to do it. When handing back the goods, somebody from the IRS told him, Your wife is a grouch--which hardly seems fair.

steelframe 3y ago

> The customers will get their property back, just not immediately. "Just not immediately" is a big fucking deal for people in Amsterdam who use their bicycles as their primary means of transportation. Imagine you lived in Phoenix right now and the same thing happened with your car. You dropped off your Rivian or Lucid for repairs and -- surprise! -- they were actually on the brink of bankruptcy, so now the only way for you to get to work, pick up kids, etc. is to try walking, biking, or busing for miles in 110F+ degree heat until the courts figure out how to get your vehicle back to you. If I depended on my bike for transportation -- as is the case for many people in Amsterdam -- then holding onto my bike for more than a few days for a repair is effective theft of my primary means of transportation. If the mechanic tells me they can swap out a part in a couple of days and needs to keep the bike for that, no big deal. The milk in my fridge won't spoil in that time, and I can WFH for a couple of days. Maybe take a while longer to get to and from daycare by walking and busing. But if my bike becomes unavailable for much longer than that, at that point I would be forced to treat it exactly like a theft and purchase a replacement so I can travel the way I need to again. I still need to buy groceries and get to the office in a reasonable amount of time, and I don't have weeks or months to wait until the courts/lawyers can finally figure out WTF is going on with the property locked in the stores. Sure, chances are I'll eventually get my means of transportation back, but by then it will be too late, since I will have been forced to replace it by then. It's de facto theft.

yourusername 3y ago
>"Just not immediately" is a big fucking deal for people in Amsterdam who use their bicycles as their primary means of transportation. Imagine you lived in Phoenix right now and the same thing happened with your car. You dropped off your Rivian or Lucid for repairs and -- surprise! -- they were actually on the brink of bankruptcy, so now the only way for you to get to work, pick up kids, etc. is to try walking, biking, or busing for miles in 110F+ degree heat until the courts figure out how to get your vehicle back to you. It's not remotely the same. You can buy a used €100 bike in Amsterdam easily (which should be no big deal to people riding around on €2300 bikes). You're not walking miles in 110F heat to the store in Amsterdam, more like a 1 km (max) walk in 22c weather. I don't think you realize how common actual bike theft is in the Netherlands. It is in no way a big deal.