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Python is a tool for people from diverse backgrounds to work together with code. "Advanced mastery" works against this goal by elevating your level beyond what

Python is a tool for people from diverse backgrounds to work together with code. "Advanced mastery" works against this goal by elevating your level beyond what others can read and understand. But then again, I don't use list comprehensions, because I don't comprehend them, so what do I know.

hiatus 3y ago
> Python is a tool for people from diverse backgrounds to work together with code. Where did you get that idea? Python is a programming language. That some find it more accessible than others is orthogonal to the work needed to master it.
ori_prior 3y ago
Ah, the lowest-common-denominator argument for why your code is crap. That is the reason that Python code has become what PHP was 10 years ago: The mark of projects to avoid at all cost.
- imissmymind 3y ago
  That's not nice. Everyone is on their own journey, their own learning curve, to a level experience needed to fulfill their own ambition. Rather than saying, "your code is crap" wouldn't it be more productive to encourage this person to challenge themselves to get outside their comfort zone?
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    > Everyone is on their own journey Not everyone is trying to be nice either.
  - ori_prior 3y ago
    That person explicitly dismissed "advanced mastery" and thus challenging and bettering oneself or themselves as being non-inclusive. I find this attitude highly offensive, because my motivation towards mastery is not of that kind. I'm happy to include people, explain them my code, help them along towards mastery. Software also has an ongoing quality crisis, all while being more and more influential in people's lives. That person's attitude towards writing quality software helps to deepen that crisis and is therefore harmful.
bogwog 3y ago
So people should suck at writing Python code for the sake of teamwork? What?
whalesalad 3y ago
Mastering your tools is step one of being a professional.
qthrowayq0909 3y ago
This is a perfectly sane, at least from business point of view, argument. It is being treated with a tantrum of downvotes. That in turns shows a lot about the state of affairs in a certain bunch of programmers. Most importantly that they put their own narrowly defined version of excellence above the importance of maintainability and thus tangible business value. To put it bluntly. I'd hire the downvoted guy/gal in a heartbeat but would shy away from the downvoters. Why? Because I need to deliver business value which pays for our salaries. And I need to do it today and tomorrow and in years from now. This is a message to normal people that understand that coding is a _social_ activity that has an audience in the present (your coworkers) and in the future (poor maintainers). Not only you're not alone in this but you are the majority.
- sanderjd 3y ago
  I think downvoting that comment is stupid, but I also think the comment is wrong: Mastery does not imply incomprehensibility, but rather the opposite.
  - unmole 3y ago
    > I think downvoting that comment is stupid, Why?
    - sanderjd 3y ago
      Because downvotes aren't for disagreement. There is nothing wrong with the comment, it isn't aggressive or trolling or in bad faith or anything. It's just reasonable to disagree with it.
      - unmole 3y ago
        > Because downvotes aren't for disagreement. On Reddit, not HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314
        3y ago
mrelectric 3y ago
I agree with you, though I wouldn't draw the line before list comprehensions, those are very basic.
knighthack 3y ago
Just because you can't read or understand masterful code, does not mean you should deny someone else's mastery of Python. Are the "people from diverse backgrounds" (whatever that means) denied any of their rights and privileges by a programmer's use of "advanced" code? No. Quite the contrary: less-experienced people may still read, learn from and improve themselves by the advanced/beyond-their-level code they encounter. So what's your real issue? Code is written to solve problems; not to please the lowest common denominator. If you can't read code, you're that denominator, and that's on you. I find your statement terribly odd too. A true Python master tends to write highly readable code; idiomatic and Pythonic code tends to be readable, unlike in other languages. So if you can't read advanced Python (or even use list comprehensions, which are basic in the Python scheme of things), you're not qualified to opine on what "advanced mastery" of Python entails.

hiatus 3y ago

> Python is a tool for people from diverse backgrounds to work together with code. Where did you get that idea? Python is a programming language. That some find it more accessible than others is orthogonal to the work needed to master it.

ori_prior 3y ago

Ah, the lowest-common-denominator argument for why your code is crap. That is the reason that Python code has become what PHP was 10 years ago: The mark of projects to avoid at all cost.

imissmymind 3y ago
That's not nice. Everyone is on their own journey, their own learning curve, to a level experience needed to fulfill their own ambition. Rather than saying, "your code is crap" wouldn't it be more productive to encourage this person to challenge themselves to get outside their comfort zone?
- wiseowise 3y ago
  > Everyone is on their own journey Not everyone is trying to be nice either.
- ori_prior 3y ago
  That person explicitly dismissed "advanced mastery" and thus challenging and bettering oneself or themselves as being non-inclusive. I find this attitude highly offensive, because my motivation towards mastery is not of that kind. I'm happy to include people, explain them my code, help them along towards mastery. Software also has an ongoing quality crisis, all while being more and more influential in people's lives. That person's attitude towards writing quality software helps to deepen that crisis and is therefore harmful.

bogwog 3y ago

So people should suck at writing Python code for the sake of teamwork? What?

whalesalad 3y ago

Mastering your tools is step one of being a professional.

qthrowayq0909 3y ago

This is a perfectly sane, at least from business point of view, argument. It is being treated with a tantrum of downvotes. That in turns shows a lot about the state of affairs in a certain bunch of programmers. Most importantly that they put their own narrowly defined version of excellence above the importance of maintainability and thus tangible business value. To put it bluntly. I'd hire the downvoted guy/gal in a heartbeat but would shy away from the downvoters. Why? Because I need to deliver business value which pays for our salaries. And I need to do it today and tomorrow and in years from now. This is a message to normal people that understand that coding is a _social_ activity that has an audience in the present (your coworkers) and in the future (poor maintainers). Not only you're not alone in this but you are the majority.

sanderjd 3y ago
I think downvoting that comment is stupid, but I also think the comment is wrong: Mastery does not imply incomprehensibility, but rather the opposite.
- unmole 3y ago
  > I think downvoting that comment is stupid, Why?
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    Because downvotes aren't for disagreement. There is nothing wrong with the comment, it isn't aggressive or trolling or in bad faith or anything. It's just reasonable to disagree with it.
    - unmole 3y ago
      > Because downvotes aren't for disagreement. On Reddit, not HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314
      - 3y ago

mrelectric 3y ago

I agree with you, though I wouldn't draw the line before list comprehensions, those are very basic.

knighthack 3y ago

Just because you can't read or understand masterful code, does not mean you should deny someone else's mastery of Python. Are the "people from diverse backgrounds" (whatever that means) denied any of their rights and privileges by a programmer's use of "advanced" code? No. Quite the contrary: less-experienced people may still read, learn from and improve themselves by the advanced/beyond-their-level code they encounter. So what's your real issue? Code is written to solve problems; not to please the lowest common denominator. If you can't read code, you're that denominator, and that's on you. I find your statement terribly odd too. A true Python master tends to write highly readable code; idiomatic and Pythonic code tends to be readable, unlike in other languages. So if you can't read advanced Python (or even use list comprehensions, which are basic in the Python scheme of things), you're not qualified to opine on what "advanced mastery" of Python entails.