5 ms·

Yes - nothing is more likely to make me start a spiel than hearing "eat less, move more".

arcticbull 3y ago
It's interesting how persistent the 'just diet and exercise' thing is when any amount of research will show you that it just doesn't do shit. Your metabolism slows down to compensate for dieting, you eat more to compensate for exercise, etc. The studies that do show any benefit stop after 1 year, and don't really do follow-ups. By 'significant' benefit they mean statistically significant, as the weight loss numbers are really marginal. Then, if you look at 2-year follow-ups for weight-loss studies, they're fucking bleak. 9 in 10 fail and regain the bulk of the weight lost. Imagine a doctor regularly prescribing you pain medication that worked for 1 in 10 people - because that's basically the state of front-line weight management healthcare. The one that really put it into perspective for me was the one that revisited the Biggest Loser participants after 6 years and the mean regain was 70% of their lost weight (90 of the 127lbs average), and they were left with a 20% slower metabolism. [1] [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27136388/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27136388/
- riku_iki 3y ago
  so, what is the solution?..
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    Based on my research, and I'm just a schmuck on the internet, the things that seem to work are: (1) not getting fat in the first place by maintaining a healthy weight through persistent diet and exercise (2) bariatric surgery (3) GLP-1 drugs, although they're very new and (4) fasting, although that would have to be an ongoing thing, and the evidence for this is promising but limited. Re: (1) I'm not being glib, your body has a strong homeostatic drive and once you overcome it to put on the weight, you have to overcome it to lose the weight - and that's far less enjoyable. Unfortunately losing the weight can come with permanent metabolic adaptations that bias you towards regain, and you'll be fighting them for years.
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      > Unfortunately losing the weight can come with permanent metabolic adaptations that bias you towards regain, and you'll be fighting them for years. my intuition is that if you add some intense exercises into the mix, they will boost your metabolism.
  - PlunderBunny 3y ago
    This is just my opinion, but I think one thing that I haven't seen mentioned much is that modern diets (by which I mean foods) leave your stomach more empty than it should be for a given amount of calories absorbed. If you eat lots of whole foods, prepared the right way (e.g. steamed instead of fried in oil or fat) you body will 'see' less calories for the same stomach 'fullness'. (I've done a bad job of expressing that - I hope someone will chime in with a better description and more information).
    - riku_iki 3y ago
      > I hope someone will chime in with a better description and more information its called satiety index this is my main tool in attempt to manage weight, but I feel it is still not enough with sedentary office work.
  - pravus 3y ago
    Find what works for your body without doing anything that makes you hate life. I tried the "eat less, exercise more" routine for two years straight when I weighed over 340 lbs. Calorie restriction and walking everyday. I lost 50 lbs but had to quit because I was no longer able to motivate myself to keep doing it because I was absolutely exhausted. Switched to keto on whim because I basically said "let me find something nutritious for my body that I can eat every day and satisfies me". The only option for me was paleo-related stuff. No exercise, no calorie counting and I lost 90lbs in a single year. I felt healthier, slept better, had better hair, skin and joints, and several people thought I had a disease I lost so much weight so quickly. 10 years in and I still do not count calories. Ever. I eat meat, dairy and protein with as little sugar and carbs as possible. I am never hungry. I eat what I want, when I want as long as it is low carb. I now consider this to be a solved problem for me. I'm not saying keto is for everyone, but find what works for you. It will be obvious to your body when you do.
    - somenameforme 3y ago
      It's just the protein IMO. I've only relatively recently began taking weight training seriously, and it really opened my eyes to how different nutrients really can affect you. When I hit my protein goals (which is 1g per lb of body weight) I'm left basically force feeding myself, in spite of maintaining approximately the same calorie intake as before. Eating proper levels of protein just leaves you so absurdly full. I always read the same was true of fiber, but never experienced this at all myself. I love broccoli and could eat it all day long, literally. Notably just about the entire developed world is protein deficient. Factor in the DIAAS score [1] and the entire developed world is plainly malnourished as far as protein goes. DIAAS has to do with the fact that the digestibility (and amino acid balance) of protein varies by source. So, for instance to get the equivalent of 100 grams of protein from chicken breast, you'd need to consume 250 grams of protein from roasted peanuts. Even if somebody isn't working out, bumping up the protein (and protein quality) would almost certainly show great things. I went from relying on intermittent fasting and some fairly cautious eating to maintain my weight, to a "diet" that culminates in "Oh god, I just can't eat anymore!" owing to nothing but dramatic shifts in my protein (and protein quality) intake. --- The [rapidly diminishing] inverse correlation between veganism and obesity would seem to reject this, but I think that can be easily and entirely explained by the fact that vegans are people who have already voluntarily opted into ideologically motivated dietary restraint. If you're willing and able to not give into what your body wants, then you will have little to no difficulty controlling your weight. It just won't be pleasant. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestible_Indispensable_Amino_Acid_Score https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestible_Indispensable_Amino...
- sw104 3y ago
  I'm interested. When people say losing weight causes the metabolism to slow down, are they simply referring to the BMR going down as a result of the new weight/height/sex combination. Between 65kg and 60kg of body mass, my BMR would go down about 50 calories, which given lifestyle and eating changes, wouldn't be such an issue. Or is there something else I'm missing? How drastically does metabolism slow down? Has anybody calculated how much it does this by, or is there too many variables at play for any accuracy?
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    See section 4 on metabolic adaptation [1] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9036397/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9036397/
- iopq 3y ago
  So they were still weighed 37 lbs less on average? That would explain the lower metabolism
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    If you read the study, you'll find they say 17% below what you would expect for someone of their weight and activity level, so no, it doesn't explain the lower metabolism. That's kind of the point of the study.
    - iopq 3y ago
      What about before? Were they lower than expected before they lost the weight?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- seer 3y ago
  Well sure people fail to maintain exercise schedules cause gym is freaking boring. Most people that manage find some way to get endorphins out of it - like if they get fit and like how they body looks, they can use that as a source of happiness, or find some other way to exercise that is fun on its own (martial arts, social dancing, cycling, hiking, sports etc…) Exercise and diet is simply not fun enough to be its own thing for most people. But it can be a means to an end - and once you achieve that end you can “lock yourself” into a more energetic and fun life. Those studies try to control for all of that but its really hard as its something that requires a lot of time to play out and its not entirely ethical to put humans into things like this. My totally anecdotal advise would be to go to your local dance school - you’ll have so much fun you wouldn’t think you’re exercising when you could literally spend 6+ hours running squatting and jumping, 2-3 times a week. Whatever your diet you’ll probably get in shape, though by that point you will care little for that as there is surprisingly little body shaming in social dance communities :-D

It's interesting how persistent the 'just diet and exercise' thing is when any amount of research will show you that it just doesn't do shit. Your metabolism slows down to compensate for dieting, you eat more to compensate for exercise, etc. The studies that do show any benefit stop after 1 year, and don't really do follow-ups. By 'significant' benefit they mean statistically significant, as the weight loss numbers are really marginal. Then, if you look at 2-year follow-ups for weight-loss studies, they're fucking bleak. 9 in 10 fail and regain the bulk of the weight lost. Imagine a doctor regularly prescribing you pain medication that worked for 1 in 10 people - because that's basically the state of front-line weight management healthcare. The one that really put it into perspective for me was the one that revisited the Biggest Loser participants after 6 years and the mean regain was 70% of their lost weight (90 of the 127lbs average), and they were left with a 20% slower metabolism. [1] [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27136388/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27136388/

riku_iki 3y ago
so, what is the solution?..
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Based on my research, and I'm just a schmuck on the internet, the things that seem to work are: (1) not getting fat in the first place by maintaining a healthy weight through persistent diet and exercise (2) bariatric surgery (3) GLP-1 drugs, although they're very new and (4) fasting, although that would have to be an ongoing thing, and the evidence for this is promising but limited. Re: (1) I'm not being glib, your body has a strong homeostatic drive and once you overcome it to put on the weight, you have to overcome it to lose the weight - and that's far less enjoyable. Unfortunately losing the weight can come with permanent metabolic adaptations that bias you towards regain, and you'll be fighting them for years.
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > Unfortunately losing the weight can come with permanent metabolic adaptations that bias you towards regain, and you'll be fighting them for years. my intuition is that if you add some intense exercises into the mix, they will boost your metabolism.
- PlunderBunny 3y ago
  This is just my opinion, but I think one thing that I haven't seen mentioned much is that modern diets (by which I mean foods) leave your stomach more empty than it should be for a given amount of calories absorbed. If you eat lots of whole foods, prepared the right way (e.g. steamed instead of fried in oil or fat) you body will 'see' less calories for the same stomach 'fullness'. (I've done a bad job of expressing that - I hope someone will chime in with a better description and more information).
  - riku_iki 3y ago
    > I hope someone will chime in with a better description and more information its called satiety index this is my main tool in attempt to manage weight, but I feel it is still not enough with sedentary office work.
- pravus 3y ago
  Find what works for your body without doing anything that makes you hate life. I tried the "eat less, exercise more" routine for two years straight when I weighed over 340 lbs. Calorie restriction and walking everyday. I lost 50 lbs but had to quit because I was no longer able to motivate myself to keep doing it because I was absolutely exhausted. Switched to keto on whim because I basically said "let me find something nutritious for my body that I can eat every day and satisfies me". The only option for me was paleo-related stuff. No exercise, no calorie counting and I lost 90lbs in a single year. I felt healthier, slept better, had better hair, skin and joints, and several people thought I had a disease I lost so much weight so quickly. 10 years in and I still do not count calories. Ever. I eat meat, dairy and protein with as little sugar and carbs as possible. I am never hungry. I eat what I want, when I want as long as it is low carb. I now consider this to be a solved problem for me. I'm not saying keto is for everyone, but find what works for you. It will be obvious to your body when you do.
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    It's just the protein IMO. I've only relatively recently began taking weight training seriously, and it really opened my eyes to how different nutrients really can affect you. When I hit my protein goals (which is 1g per lb of body weight) I'm left basically force feeding myself, in spite of maintaining approximately the same calorie intake as before. Eating proper levels of protein just leaves you so absurdly full. I always read the same was true of fiber, but never experienced this at all myself. I love broccoli and could eat it all day long, literally. Notably just about the entire developed world is protein deficient. Factor in the DIAAS score [1] and the entire developed world is plainly malnourished as far as protein goes. DIAAS has to do with the fact that the digestibility (and amino acid balance) of protein varies by source. So, for instance to get the equivalent of 100 grams of protein from chicken breast, you'd need to consume 250 grams of protein from roasted peanuts. Even if somebody isn't working out, bumping up the protein (and protein quality) would almost certainly show great things. I went from relying on intermittent fasting and some fairly cautious eating to maintain my weight, to a "diet" that culminates in "Oh god, I just can't eat anymore!" owing to nothing but dramatic shifts in my protein (and protein quality) intake. --- The [rapidly diminishing] inverse correlation between veganism and obesity would seem to reject this, but I think that can be easily and entirely explained by the fact that vegans are people who have already voluntarily opted into ideologically motivated dietary restraint. If you're willing and able to not give into what your body wants, then you will have little to no difficulty controlling your weight. It just won't be pleasant. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestible_Indispensable_Amino_Acid_Score https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestible_Indispensable_Amino...
sw104 3y ago
I'm interested. When people say losing weight causes the metabolism to slow down, are they simply referring to the BMR going down as a result of the new weight/height/sex combination. Between 65kg and 60kg of body mass, my BMR would go down about 50 calories, which given lifestyle and eating changes, wouldn't be such an issue. Or is there something else I'm missing? How drastically does metabolism slow down? Has anybody calculated how much it does this by, or is there too many variables at play for any accuracy?
- arcticbull 3y ago
  See section 4 on metabolic adaptation [1] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9036397/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9036397/
iopq 3y ago
So they were still weighed 37 lbs less on average? That would explain the lower metabolism
- arcticbull 3y ago
  If you read the study, you'll find they say 17% below what you would expect for someone of their weight and activity level, so no, it doesn't explain the lower metabolism. That's kind of the point of the study.
  - iopq 3y ago
    What about before? Were they lower than expected before they lost the weight?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
seer 3y ago
Well sure people fail to maintain exercise schedules cause gym is freaking boring. Most people that manage find some way to get endorphins out of it - like if they get fit and like how they body looks, they can use that as a source of happiness, or find some other way to exercise that is fun on its own (martial arts, social dancing, cycling, hiking, sports etc…) Exercise and diet is simply not fun enough to be its own thing for most people. But it can be a means to an end - and once you achieve that end you can “lock yourself” into a more energetic and fun life. Those studies try to control for all of that but its really hard as its something that requires a lot of time to play out and its not entirely ethical to put humans into things like this. My totally anecdotal advise would be to go to your local dance school - you’ll have so much fun you wouldn’t think you’re exercising when you could literally spend 6+ hours running squatting and jumping, 2-3 times a week. Whatever your diet you’ll probably get in shape, though by that point you will care little for that as there is surprisingly little body shaming in social dance communities :-D