4 ms·

Maybe it's a good thing. The one thing I've learned in my 20 year IC career is that I'd chosen the wrong path, generally. Every company is different, but it f

Maybe it's a good thing. The one thing I've learned in my 20 year IC career is that I'd chosen the wrong path, generally. Every company is different, but it felt wild watching people move fast up the rank from supe to mgr to director to vp of some useless thing, while us engineers move like molasses. And I don't mean this as sour grapes jealousy. I've literally had people come in, beg for help with their inflated title, then treat us like trash a year later. More engineers, less managers, please.

jedberg 3y ago
I've worked at a couple places that had the "dual track", where they claimed that engineers can get promoted just like managers. The problem is, to be a VP manager, you need to be a really good manager. To be a VP level IC, you need to be the best in the entire industry in your field. So sure, you can accelerate just like the managers, but in reality it's far harder on the IC track.
- eclectic29 3y ago
  Yes, thank you! this needs to be said many more times. Everyone calls out parallel tracks but doesn't mention how much harder it is to move up in the IC track than in the mgr track. I wrote a similar response here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36697404#36700085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36697404#36700085
- mmmmmbop 3y ago
  In my opinion, that is still fair. IC is a much more rewarding and enjoyable job for many, so it seems reasonable that there would be a lot more competition for the high-level IC positions. If you're willing to put up with the organizational bullshit and politics, there's usually nothing stopping you from becoming a manager at those tech companies. The "dual track" concept is already a significant improvement over "traditional" companies where the IC ladder usually stops short of the first level of management.
  - dougmwne 3y ago
    I would suggest that lots of people don’t think like you or share your values. Lots of people would rather spend the day talking and basking in the attention and respect that comes with their position.
    - mmmmmbop 3y ago
      That may be true. My impression was that people switch over to the management chain because it's easier to climb the ladder there, not because they inherently enjoy it more. FWIW, in FAANG, I've seen high-level ICs to be much more respected than equal-level managers.
  - red_trumpet 3y ago
    That argument is sound if there are as many IC VPs as there are management VPs. Otherwise it looks like a convenient lie.
    - mmmmmbop 3y ago
      It's very difficult for an IC to achieve the same impact as a management VP commandeering thousands of engineers.
      - zeroonetwothree 3y ago
        I would argue the average VP has negative to zero marginal impact. You could replace them with another random person and achieve similar results. Of course there are exceptional cases but my experience has been that most essentially just meddle with things they don’t understand or cause excessive churn by wanting to seem to be doing something.
  - eptcyka 3y ago
    Yes, because job A is more enjoyable than job B, we should expect people to toil more for less reward, and have higher expectations of those who do job A.
- Xenoamorphous 3y ago
  The problem I think with IC lies in the "I". You can be an absolute rockstar but no matter how good you are the impact of a single person at the technical level in most cases can never reach the impact of a manager with dozens, if not hundreds, of people under them. And I say this as an IC after a 20 year career.
  - _the_inflator 3y ago
    Yes. That's essentially the principle behind scaling. Using more people. As an IC you are always limited, even if you are some sort of genius, sickness etc.
  - ryandrake 3y ago
    This is just a problem with how we measure a manager's performance. If you measure an IC's performance as "what that IC accomplished" and then measure a manager's performance as "the sum of what every IC under him accomplished" then of course, even a mediocre manager is going to look like he's had more impact than the world's foremost expert IC.
  - zeroonetwothree 3y ago
    We should measure impact on the margin. The marginal manager adds zero value. Whereas that’s not true for ICs
laputan_machine 3y ago
Been doing this for 13 years, professionally and I see the same thing in the UK. I want to work for a company that doesn't think engineers are "lesser". We have PhD's in computer science, I have worked with people who have made significant contributions to the tooling of modern languages, and yet a manager who spends most of their time on eBay, Twitter or giving the same talk on "psychological safety" for the 15th time gets lauded? I don't get it. I'm not a bucket crab, I don't want to drag people down, I just want the same opportunities people in other disciplines get (in the same industry!!)
- treprinum 3y ago
  Give up on UK/EU companies, they won't change. Work remotely for US companies. In many US companies managers are more like peers to engineers, with the same salary. In UK it's a two class system, managers are usually at least 2:1 against engineers comp-wise, including at Meta London.
  - DanielHB 3y ago
    In Sweden I often had a higher salary than my immediate manager. Only the "strategic" level management were really above engineers, mostly because they decided how resources get allocated and which projects need to be prioritised.
marcinzm 3y ago
In my experience the key difference is that managers often accept they are part of an inherently soulless capitalistic exchange of their time for money. Many ICs prefer the illusion that they're not. Everything else tends to flow from that. A manager with that illusion will not rise up as quickly and an IC without that illusion will rise up more quickly. Of course living life without that illusion is not inherently better (except for the money) since it can feel very soul destroying.
xii23 3y ago
I've always felt it was a trade-off. I feel that as an IC it's way easier to change companies than as an EM, so that's why I've never been interested in the EM path.

jedberg 3y ago

I've worked at a couple places that had the "dual track", where they claimed that engineers can get promoted just like managers. The problem is, to be a VP manager, you need to be a really good manager. To be a VP level IC, you need to be the best in the entire industry in your field. So sure, you can accelerate just like the managers, but in reality it's far harder on the IC track.

eclectic29 3y ago
Yes, thank you! this needs to be said many more times. Everyone calls out parallel tracks but doesn't mention how much harder it is to move up in the IC track than in the mgr track. I wrote a similar response here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36697404#36700085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36697404#36700085
mmmmmbop 3y ago
In my opinion, that is still fair. IC is a much more rewarding and enjoyable job for many, so it seems reasonable that there would be a lot more competition for the high-level IC positions. If you're willing to put up with the organizational bullshit and politics, there's usually nothing stopping you from becoming a manager at those tech companies. The "dual track" concept is already a significant improvement over "traditional" companies where the IC ladder usually stops short of the first level of management.
- dougmwne 3y ago
  I would suggest that lots of people don’t think like you or share your values. Lots of people would rather spend the day talking and basking in the attention and respect that comes with their position.
  - mmmmmbop 3y ago
    That may be true. My impression was that people switch over to the management chain because it's easier to climb the ladder there, not because they inherently enjoy it more. FWIW, in FAANG, I've seen high-level ICs to be much more respected than equal-level managers.
- red_trumpet 3y ago
  That argument is sound if there are as many IC VPs as there are management VPs. Otherwise it looks like a convenient lie.
  - mmmmmbop 3y ago
    It's very difficult for an IC to achieve the same impact as a management VP commandeering thousands of engineers.
    - zeroonetwothree 3y ago
      I would argue the average VP has negative to zero marginal impact. You could replace them with another random person and achieve similar results. Of course there are exceptional cases but my experience has been that most essentially just meddle with things they don’t understand or cause excessive churn by wanting to seem to be doing something.
- eptcyka 3y ago
  Yes, because job A is more enjoyable than job B, we should expect people to toil more for less reward, and have higher expectations of those who do job A.
Xenoamorphous 3y ago
The problem I think with IC lies in the "I". You can be an absolute rockstar but no matter how good you are the impact of a single person at the technical level in most cases can never reach the impact of a manager with dozens, if not hundreds, of people under them. And I say this as an IC after a 20 year career.
- _the_inflator 3y ago
  Yes. That's essentially the principle behind scaling. Using more people. As an IC you are always limited, even if you are some sort of genius, sickness etc.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  This is just a problem with how we measure a manager's performance. If you measure an IC's performance as "what that IC accomplished" and then measure a manager's performance as "the sum of what every IC under him accomplished" then of course, even a mediocre manager is going to look like he's had more impact than the world's foremost expert IC.
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  We should measure impact on the margin. The marginal manager adds zero value. Whereas that’s not true for ICs

laputan_machine 3y ago

Been doing this for 13 years, professionally and I see the same thing in the UK. I want to work for a company that doesn't think engineers are "lesser". We have PhD's in computer science, I have worked with people who have made significant contributions to the tooling of modern languages, and yet a manager who spends most of their time on eBay, Twitter or giving the same talk on "psychological safety" for the 15th time gets lauded? I don't get it. I'm not a bucket crab, I don't want to drag people down, I just want the same opportunities people in other disciplines get (in the same industry!!)

treprinum 3y ago
Give up on UK/EU companies, they won't change. Work remotely for US companies. In many US companies managers are more like peers to engineers, with the same salary. In UK it's a two class system, managers are usually at least 2:1 against engineers comp-wise, including at Meta London.
- DanielHB 3y ago
  In Sweden I often had a higher salary than my immediate manager. Only the "strategic" level management were really above engineers, mostly because they decided how resources get allocated and which projects need to be prioritised.

marcinzm 3y ago

In my experience the key difference is that managers often accept they are part of an inherently soulless capitalistic exchange of their time for money. Many ICs prefer the illusion that they're not. Everything else tends to flow from that. A manager with that illusion will not rise up as quickly and an IC without that illusion will rise up more quickly. Of course living life without that illusion is not inherently better (except for the money) since it can feel very soul destroying.

xii23 3y ago

I've always felt it was a trade-off. I feel that as an IC it's way easier to change companies than as an EM, so that's why I've never been interested in the EM path.